tynet-lichat/shirakumo

18:39:48 Donar Hey! I just noticed the docs aren't available right now?

18:40:35 Shinmera they're available, but you might be looking at a specific url that has moved

18:40:52 Shinmera https://shirakumo.org/docs/trial/ works just fine

18:42:43 Shinmera docs are also always part of the sources, so you can browse locally

18:43:19 Donar Ah, I see, they're under the internals reference. The engine is so awesome! Thanks for all of the work put into this. I've been trying to work my way through the source and learning. I'm still relatively new (only recently finished PCL), so it is a little slow going.

18:43:47 Shinmera No surprises there, it's a mess of a thing that even I don't understand at times 🫠

18:43:55 Shinmera But glad you haven't gotten discouraged

18:51:06 Donar It's already so large, the documentation efforts alone has to be massive. I am trying to record some of my learning process so that once I have a better grasp I might be able to contribute back with some helpful documentation. I was curious if you might be able to give some insight into the asset loading. With gltf, it is noted that only skinned mesh extraction is supported? I wanted to load in some exported gltf scenes with animated textures, is this possible or will I need to consider an alternative approach?

18:51:45 Shinmera animated textures aren't supported atm and I don't have any ideas on how it would be supported -- I haven't looked at it at all

18:52:05 Shinmera rigs, shape keys, and scenes, including cameras and lights, are supported though

18:52:23 Shinmera as well as physics properties via the khr extension, and trial specific extensions for trigger volumes and so on

18:52:44 Shinmera what do you need to animate textures for?

18:56:02 Donar I am currently working in Crocotile 3D (https://crocotile3d.com/), so I am using it to walkthrough UV coordinates on a tilemap to create "animations", it looks similar to how the water is done here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3X3ejsRMoY

18:56:34 Shinmera I see. Yea that's just not a thing trial has a good mechanism for at this time

18:57:21 Shinmera assuming the animation is stored as an atlas you can probably do it in a simple shader that offsets the UVs appropriately

18:57:37 Shinmera the decoding logic will be the more troublesome part

18:57:54 Shinmera as in, from gltf to that mechanism

19:01:19 Shinmera if I were in my usual mental state I'd probably be looking at how it's done in gltf right now, but I can barely scrounge together the ability to do anything these days, so

19:02:16 Donar That makes sense. I can probably avoid it for now and then once I get a playground set up for myself I might look into how that is handled to see if I might be able to crack that case! I just need to get something set up so that I can see some results and boost my motivation 😅 What has been your experience with working in 3D so far?

19:02:37 Shinmera 3d is a giant headache in every respect

19:05:35 Shinmera the tools suck, the formats suck, the techniques are complicated and difficult, it's so much more effort

19:07:25 Donar I hope I am not probing too much, I apologize if so- but is it a common lisp issue? I have been trying to learn openGL with common lisp, and it seems that there are a lot of problems.

19:11:45 Shinmera no, it's an issue of the industry being a combination of fast moving tech, NIH syndrome, and anti-compete dumbshit behaviour

19:12:17 Shinmera so everyone reinvents their own solution, doesn't collaborate, and the few attempts at collaboration usually either don't take off, or quickly atropphy because the tech moves so fast and there's not enough people with time

19:12:35 Shinmera 3d stuff is just very difficult and there's a tremendous amount to do

19:17:56 Shinmera opengl is just also very crusty because it's ladden with legacy, and all the info out there is all over the place

19:22:07 Donar I have honestly been blown away by the amount of math, work, etc involved in just getting simple rendering up. I had originally thought to set out to do a doom-esque DIY engine myself, but I learned about Trial and I have felt compelled to learn it because of the very points you've raised (even in one of your recent blogs). I'd like to actively contribute, but I am still learning how everything is handled. Your CLOS usage is so awesome, but I am still not quite fluent in it yet

19:49:15 Hugo I kinda fell apart a bit too during April. I felt like all the brilliant progress I made is just because Trial is so awesome, and once my game starts taking shape it will become apparent that I'm an idiot playing with big tools. In fact, I'm usually too far in the opposite direction, always feeling my ideas are more interesting than other designers. Through the pain of going through this, I think something adequate will be born, but at least it will be the expression of what only one person could do.

19:55:22 Hugo Hm that was poor phrasing. I mean a self-expression. It's certainly not something one person could do.

19:57:33 Donar "I'm an idiot playing with big tools" I feel this too. I like that Trial is modular in that it doesn't push to you solve things in only one way, which just adds to that ability to self-express while still utilizing the same tools that others are as well. I think it works to encourage everyone contributing to those core tools instead of solving the same already solved problem.

20:01:59 Donar I just worry that my code is terrible and not very idiomatic 😅

20:02:13 Shinmera meh, everyone's code is like that at the start

20:06:50 Hugo at the end of the day we have to keep doing the thing and the rest will take care of itself

20:07:01 Hugo gonna grab some shut eye, night night

20:09:06 Donar I'll definitely be putting in some time on it over the next couple weeks, so hopefully I'll have some more to share by then!