twitch/#baggers___ - IRC Chatlog

18:01:46 speakingbeast Hello!

18:01:48 mfiano Hey Baggers. How do you feel about CEPL losing Mac support soon? :(

18:01:49 speakingbeast Sounds good

18:02:08 mfiano Oh CFFI cool

18:02:16 elevatorsimulator Seems fine

18:06:16 mfiano Actually stassats commited a fix for the "gamejam macos/sbcl bug"

18:06:49 mfiano It's actually in your github issue :)

18:07:28 elevatorsimulator Is the stream a bit choppy, or is it just me?

18:07:50 mfiano https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2/issues/105#issuecomment-394121654

18:07:52 tycolleen github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl... Website (HTML), Title: 'Segmentation fault 11' on high sierra · Issue #105 · lispgames/cl-sdl2 · GitHub

18:08:18 mfiano @elevatorsimulator I think it's just you

18:08:22 mfiano Coming in great here

18:09:11 elevatorsimulator Yeah, probably.

18:09:16 d4ryus this motherfucking d4ryus is late AGAIN... but iam here now :) chellas everyone

18:09:51 rahaldan stream isn't choppy ... but it seems that Twitch-server have troubles since yesterday

18:10:17 mfiano Yeah because I have a billion for you sitting there for your off time :)

18:16:36 mfiano does it overflow or bleed into adjacent memory?

18:16:45 mfiano Sorry I'm a C nerwb

18:16:49 mfiano newb*

18:23:25 thepinback Howdy

18:23:38 d4ryus hi ThePinback

18:29:56 elevatorsimulator On my machine, the array is zero-initialized.

18:30:22 mfiano That's undefined behavior. It could be allocating any chunk of memory

18:32:51 rbarraud59 Gooooood Mooooorning Norveges!!11!! :-)

18:33:07 d4ryus hi rbarraud59

18:33:36 rbarraud59 Heya d4ryus :-)

18:44:12 borodust yo

18:44:33 d4ryus good evening borodust

18:46:25 rbarraud59 Hi borodust :-)

18:46:56 rbarraud59 Cool and wet here this morning

18:47:01 rbarraud59 Heater is on

18:47:43 rbarraud59 1 week to solstice - yayy! :-)

18:48:38 rbarraud59 Baggers___ - the ideal alarm clock - gentle wakeup and interesting content :-)

18:49:18 rbarraud59 Sheeesh - how is time going this fast? :-/

18:51:57 borodust poor man's union ;p

18:52:12 rbarraud59 Prefer garlic myselph...

18:53:43 rbarraud59 Is there a standard .chh-gobbler lib -in quicklisp?

18:53:54 borodust gobbler?

18:53:58 rbarraud59 Ditto dynamic linker?

18:54:07 rbarraud59 digester :-)

18:54:11 rbarraud59 Grokker

18:54:15 rbarraud59 0mn0mn0m

18:54:16 borodust groveller? ;p

18:54:26 rbarraud59 If you like :-)

18:54:30 rbarraud59 Scrobbler?

18:54:37 borodust nope, i prefer c2ffi :D

18:55:28 rbarraud59 Baggers___ How did you manage to get into commercial Lisp programming initially?

18:56:22 rbarraud59 AV is taking big jumps... presumably trying to FF me to live-feed?

18:56:40 rbarraud59 I'm still a Twitch-n00b :-/

18:58:42 rbarraud59 AVX types??

18:59:16 rbarraud59 Gaaahhh

18:59:39 rbarraud59 I can't tell how far behind my play is

19:00:00 rbarraud59 [and how long this krazeh jumping will continue :-/ ]

19:00:31 elevatorsimulator Can you have enums with multiple types?

19:01:51 rbarraud59 Casts?

19:02:32 elevatorsimulator I think I meant unions, actually. My C is a bit rusty.

19:03:14 d4ryus elevatorsimulator yes, thats basically the point for using a union :)

19:03:19 rbarraud59 My Rust is a bit C-y...

19:03:38 rbarraud59 ;-)

19:03:40 d4ryus :D

19:04:01 mfiano I know cl-sdl2 wraps its pointers with finalizers which is annoying having them garbage collected behind my back.

19:04:02 rbarraud59 A friend is writing a Rust book...

19:04:09 rbarraud59 I should go C him :-)

19:04:21 rbarraud59 I think he may need a bit of encouragement.

19:04:31 electromatter type punning

19:05:13 rbarraud59 FOOMH ;-)

19:05:19 rbarraud59 I get that too

19:05:43 rbarraud59 How 'bout type palindroming?

19:06:04 rbarraud59 notloB foo ;

19:06:13 rbarraud59 ?

19:06:59 rbarraud59 Was that w3m just then?

19:08:46 rbarraud59 "It will be important..."

19:09:16 rbarraud59 ...for a moment there I had a minor panic attack - extrapolated it to "It'll be on the exam" :-/

19:10:12 electromatter I mean rbarraud59, if you dont want it to crash (SIGBUS) padding/alignment is important!

19:10:43 rbarraud59 Trudat :-)

19:11:05 rbarraud59 Even M68K used to kick yer a$$ that way ;-)

19:11:20 rbarraud59 ...and so it should :-)

19:12:01 rbarraud59 Anyone done a Lispy dtrace ?

19:12:30 rbarraud59 quicklisp FlameGraphs?

19:13:03 rbarraud59 eeeek - Syntax!!11!!

19:13:04 rbarraud59 ;-)

19:13:21 rbarraud59 That was what I was meaning by Gobbler :-)Yayyy

19:13:29 borodust aw, thank you :)

19:13:44 d4ryus any links? :p

19:14:14 rbarraud59 0mn0mn0m

19:14:20 borodust cl-autowrap: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/

19:14:20 rbarraud59 Eat all teh C's.

19:14:21 tycolleen github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/ Website (HTML), Title: GitHub - rpav/cl-autowrap: (c-include "file.h") => complete FFI wrapper

19:14:25 rbarraud59 Thanks

19:14:43 d4ryus thank you

19:15:35 rbarraud59 I can haz Lispy x64 assembler?

19:16:05 rbarraud59 [Else I will be writing one]

19:17:05 rbarraud59 Get me the header of Alfredo Garcia...

19:17:16 rbarraud59 Thanks Baggers___

19:17:28 rbarraud59 :-)

19:17:45 rbarraud59 garcia.chh

19:18:33 rbarraud59 So with present State Of The Art,

19:18:44 rbarraud59 how much faster is C than CL really?

19:19:09 rbarraud59 ...and is the point more to be able to use pre-existing FF libs?

19:19:25 rbarraud59 (an obvious benefit)

19:19:26 borodust yup, the only reason

19:19:36 borodust library reuse

19:20:02 electromatter According to the language shootout, maybe between 2-3x faster

19:20:07 electromatter But idk how fair that is

19:20:31 rbarraud59 Are there up-t-date benchmark/comparisons on CL (sbcl e.g.) vs. C (llvm/x64 perhaps) for 'typical' use cases?

19:20:37 rbarraud59 [I know right,

19:20:51 rbarraud59 Lies, damned lies, benchmarks... :-/ ]

19:21:00 electromatter I mean not even

19:21:05 electromatter like the C code uses threads

19:21:05 borodust should be reallly careful about using C libs for speed, because FFI has its overhead and sometimes you stumble upon structs-by-value oddities

19:21:14 electromatter how is that fair lol

19:21:28 rbarraud59 Does CL/sbcl not do threads?

19:21:32 electromatter it can

19:21:36 electromatter thats why its not fair

19:21:41 rbarraud59 Hmmm

19:21:50 electromatter also, the regex benchmark uses a jit

19:21:55 electromatter I don't think thats fair either

19:22:04 rbarraud59 Nah

19:22:12 electromatter because we could write a lispy regex jitter

19:22:23 electromatter or even just use theirs

19:22:28 rbarraud59 OTOH it'd be easier to write a JIT in CL than C :-)

19:22:36 electromatter I agree

19:22:38 rbarraud59 Snap!

19:22:41 rbarraud59 Bingo

19:22:43 rbarraud59 ;-)

19:23:08 rbarraud59 You probably know what I'm thinking here eh :-)

19:23:28 rbarraud59 And yes, that is what I am doing...

19:23:41 rbarraud59 ;-)

19:24:07 rbarraud59 Now if only someone would pay me to take over ze Welt!

19:24:43 rbarraud59 [sez the Dude who hasn't yet got lists going correclty - WIP :-) ]

19:26:39 rbarraud59 Look out Dragon Book, I'm Baaaaaccck! ;-)

19:27:12 rbarraud59 OH BTW does anyone have a link to an accurate machine-readable Dragon Book?

19:27:16 rbarraud59 Pref 2e

19:28:16 rbarraud59 Also: Goin' all Winograd on K&R's ass...

19:28:21 rbarraud59 ;-)

19:29:13 rbarraud59 That pointer is transparently a Dafuxat.

19:29:35 electromatter what about unicode issues

19:30:00 electromatter C's char is not the same as CL charater?

19:33:58 rbarraud59 Another semiN00b Q:

19:34:26 rbarraud59 Is there a 'standard' (i.e. de facto most-commonly-used) C-ifier?

19:34:44 rbarraud59 (sb)CL --> C source

19:35:08 rbarraud59 [with preferred type-size hints / smart inference]

19:35:54 rbarraud59 Ah, looks like Baggers___ is at least partially answering that one for me there :-) ?

19:36:10 electromatter ecl compiles to C

19:36:44 rbarraud59 Yup

19:36:53 electromatter kinda hard to get past the cl runtime lol

19:36:57 rbarraud59 Chicken ""

19:37:39 rbarraud59 ACTION realizing I asked a fairly silly Q

19:37:58 rbarraud59 Heyyy, I'm still on my 1st kawfee here :-/

19:38:20 rbarraud59 Anyone here watching Bone closely?

19:38:31 rbarraud59 [written by the Chicken Dude]

19:38:48 rbarraud59 Yeah exactly electromatter :-)

19:38:58 rbarraud59 If you put a runtime in the C code....

19:39:00 rbarraud59 ;-)

19:39:14 rbarraud59 Which essentially gives you CL again :-)

19:39:16 rbarraud59 heheh

19:39:29 ak_coram hi all, am a bit late :/

19:39:41 electromatter hi ak

19:39:51 rbarraud59 heya ak_coram

19:40:00 metayan cheight

19:40:00 rbarraud59 better l8 than never :-)

19:40:14 borodust well, we didn't get height, unfortunately ;p

19:40:24 rbarraud59 no, it's not a mis-spelling of shite!

19:40:26 rbarraud59 :-/

19:40:51 rbarraud59 ...

19:41:00 elevatorsimulator Probably it’s only used to load square images anyway

19:41:09 borodust :D

19:41:19 rbarraud59 I guess I was thinking more of a C-ifier that C-ified a C-able subset ...

19:41:58 ak_coram there's some stuff to generate most of this from C header files, right?

19:42:16 rbarraud59 (unwind-protect long-road)?

19:42:18 borodust ak_coram: yes, a few options there

19:42:18 ak_coram I've seen it in haskell at least

19:42:31 d4ryus (from before: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/)

19:42:32 tycolleen github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/ Website (HTML), Title: GitHub - rpav/cl-autowrap: (c-include "file.h") => complete FFI wrapper

19:42:37 borodust nuklear too!

19:43:39 rbarraud59 Moar!!! Not 2h yet! :-)

19:43:55 d4ryus oh man, there is bonus material :O

19:44:11 rbarraud59 Yes pleez! :-)

19:44:52 rbarraud59 [Inserts oversized jackplug in skullbase...]

19:45:10 d4ryus that was an AWESOME intro to cffi, thank you very much!

19:45:25 rbarraud59 Wot d4ryus sez :-)

19:45:39 rbarraud59 YUSSS!!! We win!! :-)

19:45:58 d4ryus stream is over, now we enter bonus material

19:46:00 rbarraud59 humanity is the big winner on the day! :-)

19:46:01 d4ryus *pants off* :D

19:46:06 rbarraud59 Auuughhhh

19:46:17 rbarraud59 Not @ my desk

19:46:22 rbarraud59 :-)

19:46:38 rbarraud59 Fly is busted though - indoors-only pants :-/

19:46:42 ak_coram can you share stuff with C without conversion btw? such as individual cons cells, to implement your sort algorithm in C for example

19:46:44 rbarraud59 WTMI yeah I know

19:47:20 rbarraud59 ak_coram : Implementation-dependent :

19:47:23 rbarraud59 ?

19:47:42 ak_coram rbarraud59: makes sense...

19:47:50 rbarraud59 When is a cons not a cons?

19:47:57 electromatter well garbage collection

19:48:01 rbarraud59 When it's a kons (f'rinstance)

19:48:02 electromatter interaction with C and GC is hard

19:48:08 rbarraud59 Steele q.v. ...

19:48:38 rbarraud59 It's Ralph-Hard.

19:48:46 rbarraud59 UnPossible...

19:48:47 rbarraud59 ;-)

19:49:11 rbarraud59 Again, GC is an implementation-specific detail...

19:49:13 electromatter I'm learnding

19:49:16 rbarraud59 I'm going for ARC

19:49:20 rbarraud59 Yup

19:49:31 rbarraud59 Dat's wot it's all about here :-)

19:49:53 rbarraud59 Anyhone here done Swift in CL?

19:50:01 rbarraud59 s/h//

19:51:15 rbarraud59 (cons "Anyone" (rember "Anyhone" !-2))

19:51:35 ak_coram another completely random question: I recently heard about the term hash consing. is that still used in CL implementations? how about sbcl?

19:52:01 rbarraud59 I'll be doing something like that in places - probably not directly with cons' though

19:52:17 rbarraud59 I'm tagging on the Metal

19:52:22 rbarraud59 ...eventually

19:52:55 rbarraud59 cons hashing, pr hash consing?

19:52:58 rbarraud59 or*

19:53:11 ak_coram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_consing

19:53:11 tycolleen en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_... Website (HTML), Title: Hash consing - Wikipedia

19:53:21 electromatter according to wiki, hash-consing is like memorization of cons cells

19:53:55 rbarraud59 I am thinking along similar lines for my compiler.

19:54:15 ak_coram yeah, I think this is generally useful for compilers

19:54:17 rbarraud59 local memoizations of immutable/local-env things

19:54:22 rbarraud59 in ASM

19:54:40 rbarraud59 One of many many things to do.

19:55:17 rbarraud59 Part of the reason I call it B0rgScheme...

19:55:37 rbarraud59 ...is that it will also assimilate *me* :-)

19:55:45 ak_coram a fun thing would be to use this for still uncollected garbage, essentially using your unused heap as a cache

19:55:54 rbarraud59 ...at least a large number of hours of my time.

19:56:04 captainkraft o7

19:56:35 captainkraft Learning Lisp has been on my todo list for YEARS.

19:56:47 rbarraud59 I'm metting my mixaphors...

19:57:02 rbarraud59 CaptainKraft

19:57:12 rbarraud59 (force (todolist))

19:57:14 rbarraud59 ;-)

19:57:25 captainkraft hah

19:57:49 rbarraud59 (force (action (todolist)))

19:58:00 rbarraud59 Mine's decades long :-/

19:58:13 captainkraft Yeah, I hear ya

19:58:29 ak_coram (nreverse todolist)

19:58:32 rbarraud59 Last enumeration yielded 683 entries...

19:59:03 rbarraud59 Yeah ak_coram - if you were cons'ing the later stuffz ;-)

19:59:54 rbarraud59 Is there a less-SHOUTY_ASM switch Baggers___? ;-)

20:00:43 rbarraud59 Dat's what I was asking about Baggers___ - You Da Man!! :-)

20:01:16 ak_coram this is great

20:01:25 rbarraud59 Sure is

20:01:37 rbarraud59 Baggers___ Twitch.tv FTW!!!

20:01:51 d4ryus lisp never fails to amaze me

20:02:56 borodust be careful not to dump static vectors them into images!

20:02:57 rbarraud59 https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjrjYawt9HbAhVJVZQKHXUrDaYQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FThe-Far-Side-Daily-Comic-1020676467950865%2F&psig=AOvVaw1zl7sI1a_foo6e7bQES2sZ&ust=1529006537106142

20:03:08 rbarraud59 Shizz sorry

20:03:56 rbarraud59 Thanks Baggers___ 'great' I prefer over 'annoying' ;-)

20:06:18 rbarraud59 Which GC book Baggers___?

20:06:52 rbarraud59 lisp == computing

20:06:56 rbarraud59 borodust

20:07:05 borodust m?

20:07:07 borodust what is it

20:07:11 rbarraud59 xlation: computing never fails to amaze me :-)

20:10:03 electromatter Thanks for the stream!

20:10:06 ak_coram great stream as always!

20:10:08 d4ryus about executeables: hell yes! looking forward to that stream!

20:10:17 rbarraud59 Hear, here! :-)

20:10:22 borodust thanks!

20:10:26 d4ryus Thank you very much as always, great stream!

20:10:34 metayan Thanks. Bye.

20:10:40 elevatorsimulator Great stream!

20:10:42 baggers___ woo! thanks

20:10:47 baggers___ hey Metayan!

20:10:50 rbarraud59 GC book ISBN Title Author to show notes? :-)

20:10:52 baggers___ didnt seeya arrive

20:10:54 d4ryus see you all next week :) have a good time! bye

20:10:59 rbarraud59 Tkas all

20:11:02 rbarraud59 Tks**

20:11:41 rbarraud59 We know where you e-live Baggers___ ;-)

20:11:47 baggers___ rbarraud59 http://gchandbook.org/

20:11:47 tycolleen gchandbook.org/ Website (HTML), Title: The Garbage Collection Handbook

20:12:02 rbarraud59 Thankyou Sir! :-)

20:12:22 rbarraud59 Presumably NOT sponsored by Waste Management ;-)