libera/commonlisp - IRC Chatlog

12:09:40 jcowan beach: 1 = 2 was never part of the Fortran language, it was a bug in an earlh Fortran compiler.

12:10:16 jcowan Wely

12:10:37 jcowan argh, fingers not working. "early"

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12:32:43 dnhester26 hi beach, good afternoon. Would you mind taking a look at this and could you let me know if I should change anything or I made mistakes? https://lisp-docs.github.io/docs/about/reference#but-why-arent-there-a-bunch-of-spec-projects-already

12:33:46 beach Looking now...

12:34:01 dnhester26 thanks

12:34:52 madnificent That youtube video was an interesting watch.

12:35:00 beach I think it's "for whom".

12:35:35 dnhester26 haha thanks, changing that now

12:36:27 beach I would generalize "compiler writers" to "language implementers".

12:37:11 beach And I would say "any conforming Common Lisp code should be able..."

12:38:00 beach dnhester26: There is no reason to exclude other #commonlisp participants from the proofreading.

12:38:10 dnhester26 sorry

12:38:34 dnhester26 everyone: can you guys help proof reading for both meaning and grammar? https://lisp-docs.github.io/docs/about/reference#but-why-arent-there-a-bunch-of-spec-projects-already

12:38:54 beach I would avoid gender-specific pronouns. Rewriting the sentence instead is better.

12:39:01 dnhester26 That's a page making the intention of the technical reference clear and how it differs from the intention of the specification and novaspec

12:39:37 dnhester26 beach: which sentence?

12:40:25 beach "If he is focused.." "but for him to read.."

12:40:56 dnhester26 beach: changed two places of compiler writers to language implementers

12:41:16 dnhester26 beach: "any conforming Common Lisp code should be able..." is replacing which sentence?

12:41:30 beach "any Common Lisp code should be..."

12:41:35 dnhester26 thanks

12:41:54 beach If the code is not conforming, there is no reason to expect it to behave the same across implementations.

12:43:21 dnhester26 what should I replace "he" with? "The programmer"?

12:43:26 beach dnhester26: I think the Common Lisp HyperSpec was also derived from the draft, but I am not entirely sure.

12:43:39 beach dnhester26: Sure.

12:45:05 dnhester26 beach: yeah you are right, it's only based on the standard but it's not actually the standard: https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Help.htm#Authorship

12:48:33 beach Instead of "Reading the specification is not always clear..." I would write "From reading the specification, it is not always clear..." or something like that.

12:49:29 beach dnhester26: I am not sure about the word "specification". It is in fact a standard.

12:51:33 dnhester26 beach: "Reading..." yeah I changed that one as well before. same as you.

12:52:24 dnhester26 beach: ok so change it to standard everywhere or just in that sentence?

12:52:53 beach At least change all places where the final version is referred to.

12:53:16 dnhester26 ok

12:54:21 beach Those are the main things I found. I hope others will read it too.

12:56:05 dnhester26 is the section about the differences between novaspec and the technical reference correct?

12:56:09 dnhester26 thanks

12:57:18 beach I think you need to ask gilberth about that. I haven't read up on his objectives with it.

12:57:55 dnhester26 got it

12:59:34 dnhester26 beach: oh what should I change the "he" to be? "the programmer"?

13:02:46 beach Sounds good.

13:02:53 Shinmera "they" and "you" also work fine

13:03:15 shka dnhester26: you familiar with https://novaspec.org/cl/ ?

13:03:16 Shinmera maybe not in this specific instance, but for gender-neutrality

13:03:46 beach shka: If you read that page, you see that the answer is "yes".

13:04:08 shka i've seen the page

13:04:28 shka oh, right

13:04:37 shka novaspec to be specific was mentioned there

13:06:38 dnhester26 shka yeah: please read: https://lisp-docs.github.io/docs/about/reference#but-why-arent-there-a-bunch-of-spec-projects-already explaining what the difference is, and please let me know if I made any errors or I should change anything in that document :D

13:07:28 dnhester26 shka sorry, just read the rest of the messages and saw beach already answered

13:10:49 shka dnhester26: on unrelated note, this page looks quite nice, what have you used?

13:11:03 shka Docusaurus

13:11:06 dnhester26 shka: docusaurus.io

13:11:06 shka got it!

13:11:40 dnhester26 thanks :D though I take no more credit than choosing a nice library

13:11:43 shka awesome, it even adjusts to low screen resolution

13:12:36 dnhester26 I think the search is quite cool, although maybe a bit slow since it's hosted for free

13:12:40 shka dnhester26: you want to follow diataxis framework?

13:12:54 dnhester26 shka: what is that?

13:13:03 shka so the answer is "no" :D

13:13:10 shka https://diataxis.fr/

13:13:26 shka it is documentation writing… strategy?

13:13:28 dnhester26 oh

13:13:34 dnhester26 just googled it

13:14:14 shka a sort of documentation writing principles

13:14:23 dnhester26 Yeah! I read about it a while back here: https://documentation.divio.com/

13:14:46 shka it looked like it :-)

13:14:57 dnhester26 shka: look https://lisp-docs.github.io/docs/about there's a link. the picture looks similar so I assume it's the same idea

13:15:20 shka yes

13:15:26 shka that's why i asked

13:16:34 shka i appreciate distinction between "tutorials" and "how to guides"

13:16:58 dnhester26 I'm not sure 100% about breaking up the explanations in their own section entirely though. I would like some level of explanations in the tutorial and reference. Though having said that I would like much more in depth explanations in this section: https://lisp-docs.github.io/docs/category/advanced-topics

13:17:11 shka though i found it difficult to write them separately

13:18:10 dnhester26 shka: yeah, I haven't added a how To guides section because I thought we should first work on the tutorial and technical reference, but if you see here: https://lisp-docs.github.io/ in the bottom left of the 4 cards I list How To Guides

13:18:40 dnhester26 Ideally someone will make guides for developing a web app, a game, etc from beginning to finish just like they have in racket and other languages

13:19:25 dnhester26 The cookbook has great info, but a lot of times things are missing, he uses different libraries in different sections so you don't really get to have a full how to guide using the same libraries, and it can be hard as a newbie

13:20:59 shka can this be edited like wiki?

13:26:10 dnhester26 shka: I thought so with the Edit botton at the bottom of each page, but someone else told me that it forks the project. I did it and it was edited but it can be because I'm in the repo. Can you please try and see if it's complicated. I think it just gives the change to be accepted as a fork, but you don't actually have to leave the browser. Not sure though

13:26:29 dnhester26 I can add you as a member of the repo if it's easier for you

13:27:00 shka dnhester26: is it static page?

13:28:02 shka oh, apparently there is a server

13:28:13 shka drakonis: can't edit, github gives me 404

13:28:31 shka dnhester26: sorry, tab failure :-)

13:28:36 dnhester26 hm, let me check

13:28:39 dnhester26 oh

13:28:40 dnhester26 ok

13:30:33 shka i wonder if it would be possible to get permission to put "practical common lisp" here in a new section "books"

13:30:47 shka but that would be a bit much perhaps

13:30:49 olnw dnhester26: There's a typo here: "the consecuences of those aspects"

13:34:37 dnhester26 shka: it's a markdown page

13:34:56 dnhester26 olnw: thanks! fixing it now

13:35:53 olnw Also, same sentence, it says "tha language".

13:36:30 dnhester26 shka: I wanted to add CLtL2 there making it much easier to read, but we need to ask permission from HP or some other big company who bought the last copyright owner

13:37:18 dnhester26 olnw: thanks, not sure how I missed those after having read it myself like 3 times. You have a good eye!

13:38:11 dnhester26 shka: the text is basically markdown see the tip (gree box) here: https://lisp-docs.github.io/cl-language-reference/ for the syntax note and links

13:39:32 shka dnhester26: got it

13:40:31 dnhester26 shka: however the whole page is static, the markdown is compiled to html when deploying to github pages

13:40:50 shka yes, i was simply wondering how search works

13:41:07 shka but i know now

14:22:23 olnw dnhester26: It appears that, in the footer, "Why Lisp" and "Getting Started" don't link to the correct pages.

14:23:08 dnhester26 olnw: thanks, will take a look now

14:35:21 dnhester26 olnw: just changed the footer, thanks! :D

14:36:00 olnw Sure.

14:36:09 olnw I have a few more typos for you.

14:36:15 olnw About the Technical Reference: "is a consice"

14:36:15 olnw About Common Lisp Docs: "manking", "categorize and provied", "documentaion"

14:36:15 olnw Also should capitalise initial letter of "lisp" in the first sentence.

14:37:16 olnw And there is a page titled "Why Common Lisp for Begineers?"

14:38:09 mfiano Seems like a spell checker would go a longer way than a grammar checker like languagetool, while you're writing this, which should be easy to come by with your environment.

14:52:31 beach I just use flyspell-mode in Emacs when I write text.

15:04:23 dnhester26 olnw: wow! thanks for all those fixes! just went through them now

15:05:02 dnhester26 mfiano, yeah, thanks, as I was fixing those reading the comments I downloaded languagetool in vscode :D I didn't realize how many typos the spellchecker usually gets for me haha

15:23:27 Shinmera Colleen (and thus logging) will be offline for a bit due to server maintenance.

15:24:11 aeth OK, so it's time to discuss what will be in the next standard

15:24:30 beach What makes you conclude that?

15:25:14 aeth (joke)

15:25:25 beach Ah!

15:25:31 aeth what other kind of secret knowledge can we discuss while unlogged?

15:28:04 Shinmera how to win big

15:50:19 beach` ** NICK beach

17:34:21 Shinmera Colleen: hello

17:34:21 Colleen Hi!

17:34:31 Shinmera should be all back, sorry for the downtime

17:35:23 aeth It was a good opportunity for completely off-the record, entirely unlogged wisdom about Common Lisp that will never be uttered again.

17:40:09 Equill We really should have done something with it, now you put it that way.

20:41:47 Shinmera there'll be future opportunities, I'm sure

23:49:26 Gojira another question about loop ... I want to use the counter generated from (loop for counter from 0 ...) outside the loop. However if I (let ((counter 0)) (loop ...)) the value is always zero after the loop. Any suggestions??

23:56:53 moon-child (let ((counter 0)) (loop while (< counter whatever) do (incf counter) ...) ...)

23:57:04 moon-child alternately, (loop for counter from 0 ... finally (use counter here))

23:58:03 aeth or finally (return counter)

23:58:16 aeth need to return two things? finally (return (values result counter))

23:58:51 aeth though does this introduce an off-by-one issue between implementations? when the counter stops at n, is it specified what it must be?