libera/#sicl - IRC Chatlog
Search
11:16:18
hayley
"With Raku, you'll always have choices, which lets your code better express your intent" I guess I imagined anaphoric macros, pipeline macros, and that sort of thing?
11:23:12
Gnuxie
https://www.codesections.com/blog/raku-manifesto-3/ another interesting post from that blog too
11:25:43
mfiano
I'm sorry, but I have to point out that this article doesn't even mention Lisp, the king of such languages. I find that surprising considering the above article.
11:26:12
hayley
I'd also have to pick a few quarrels, namely that I don't think there is a dichotomy between programming in large groups and in small. Again, maybe I am weird, but I think I write fairly "industrial" code and it still works.
11:26:33
Gnuxie
I don't think they need to mention lisp? You could substitute Raku for Lisp and it'd be mostly fine
11:26:52
Gnuxie
its not in their interest to mention lisp either, they clearly don't think its relevant enough
11:27:30
Gnuxie
*no-defun-allowed*: well yes, that is true, but this is the first time i have seen anyone but us come close to making this sort of analysis
11:27:42
hayley
Or maybe not, I haven't worked in the industry, but I've made smaller messes of metaprogramming and macros and MOPpery and whatever else I've heard you cam only make stinking unmaintainable messes.
11:29:14
mfiano
How can there be a measure of maximal with Lisp unquestionably being at the extrema with its uniform syntax and easability of bending the language.
11:29:14
hayley
*and whatever else I've heard you can only make stinking unmaintainable messes with.
11:34:28
mfiano
I'm not offended. I just think that it doesn't come close to the developer productivity of an interactive image-based language, where the syntax can be bent to a single developer's own thought processes, such as Common Lisp.
11:35:37
hayley
I mean, the thesis of stuff I've written recently is that open source development exposes the products of one person to many, so there aren't really sustainable projects where only one person has to care about the code. (And, yes I recall a report that most projects, even the popular ones, were not sustainable financially speaking.)
11:35:43
Gnuxie
Sure, you're right but these are baby steps. The comparison isn't between lisp and Raku, its between Raku and further masochism
11:38:03
hayley
I don't mind that it's about Raku, but I think the article conjures a dichotomy that (yet again) is totally unnecessary.
11:38:31
Gnuxie
Because there are no large organizations developing software (in size compared to industry) that exist on the principles of free association, that's just not a thing we've seen?
11:39:45
Gnuxie
the article has to be written to appeal to people who have an ideology full of bullshit, each step you take from that hurts the readers ego
11:40:05
hayley
Yes, almost by definition free association doesn't involve large organisations, but it's still the case that many people use the same libraries (e.g. leftpad). So it's not like that precludes a lot of people having concern over the code.
11:44:41
mfiano
In Lisp's case, it is a side effect that was never designed for. Infact it was largely used behind closed doors in the past.
11:48:42
Gnuxie
i guess i only like it because its a lot less abrasive than linking some dogmatic lisp stuff that makes someone want to close their tab immediately