libera/#shirakumo - IRC Chatlog
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16:18:30
Colleen
<Ichiban> I just wanted to say thank you for all the work you guys have put in common lisp tools and libraries
16:19:04
Colleen
<Ichiban> I really resonate with Lisp and wish i had come accross it earlyer in life.
16:23:52
Colleen
<Ichiban> I see. That's great. It's amazing to see so much already. Looks like you are getting into 3d visual rendering nowadays
16:25:35
Colleen
<Ichiban> your so talented. I looked at your commits and felt jealousy for the firs time in years. I usually don't care about what other people have or do, so that was an unsual feeling
16:29:27
Colleen
<Ichiban> Do you mean, in general to work on what interests you, for lisp projects, or to work on a project .
16:29:50
Colleen
<shinmera> I mean that, as an independent games developer, I have yet to earn any revenue.
16:30:30
Colleen
<Ichiban> i assumed you were independantly wealthy or lived with rich parents, given you output
16:30:52
Colleen
<Ichiban> i just couldn't think of a way you managed to be that productive without getting payed
16:31:50
Colleen
<Ichiban> i've only recently been in a position where i can concentrate enough to work on stuff
16:33:49
Colleen
<shinmera> Not counting any salary to myself for work done, I would need about 50k to recoup the rest of the investments not covered by grant money I received.
16:37:31
Colleen
<Ichiban> Well, i have no doubt you will find a way. Getting to money i just another function defition.
16:38:33
Colleen
<shinmera> My general anticapitalist tendencies and absolute inability to do marketing make it unlikely that I'll be able to make my venture sustainable
16:39:26
Colleen
<Ichiban> I was wondering about that. I saw you repost of the onion video. was super funny
16:45:32
Colleen
<Ichiban> I'm coming from a place of gratitude, some of your tools, like portacle have really helped me.
16:47:05
Colleen
<Ichiban> I like computers but i was given a C++ book as a kid. If i had been given a CL book my whole life would have been different
16:47:34
Colleen
<Ichiban> I tried all the other IDE's except lispworks and Portacle is opening up a whole world
16:50:35
Colleen
<Ichiban> If i was rich i'd give you 50k just for the inspiration. But what i'm trying to say is, maybe you can learn marketing. Maybe you can change your mind about money and its role in society. The way i see it , money and capital is just society thanking you for doing something it needs. Corporate Monopolies and gov, and all that is different of course.
16:52:07
Colleen
<shinmera> Hence why I spent around 25k on marketing folks to do it for me, but that didn't recoup either.
16:53:06
Colleen
<Ichiban> If anybody will get accepted into post-scarcity alien civilization when they visit it's you .
16:53:39
Colleen
<shinmera> I'd rather we just got UBI, but I live in a dumb conservative country, so I don't know that that'll happen in my lifetime.
16:58:02
Colleen
<Ichiban> One thing i learned about business and what business people do is PIVOT. When one venture does not return, they flip it into something that will. Game not selling ? modify it for a receptive market like preppers or kids, and market to them directly. Selll it as a tool to learn how to survive the APOC. Make it christian, make it about jesus or whatever your country is about. You don't have to sell your soul, but there are a certain set
16:59:08
Colleen
<Ichiban> Black eyed peas used to be am agressive street rap band, and then took on fergie and became pop for a while. The money they made from that allowed them to pivot into other soul projects
17:00:36
Colleen
<shinmera> Such a mod requires a lot of development, and even if it didn't, just releasing a game gives you zero visibility
17:00:44
Colleen
<Ichiban> Example: instead of a long game narrative. Release a shorter one for mobile geared towards a market.
17:01:31
Colleen
<Ichiban> Much simpler, that uses what you already have, somehow. The somehow is your magic of course
17:03:19
Colleen
<shinmera> Listen, I don't want to sound mean, but I've been over this with other industry people, marketing specialists, and I've spent a significant amount of time researching options and thinking about it.
17:03:33
Colleen
<Ichiban> what i mean is, look at star citizen. They have sub games all running the same engine. different parts that bit by bit, literally contribut to the whole
17:04:45
Colleen
<Ichiban> the players like te game and the dude is not hungry. it may be a grift, but what about society is not .
17:05:36
Colleen
<Ichiban> How much time would it take to make a mini game using the whip from your main game , on mobile ?
17:06:20
Colleen
<|3b|> (and also lots of luck, like having recognizable name, past credits on something popular, etc)
17:06:40
Colleen
<|3b|> just making a splash screen /on mobile/ would be a major project currently :(
17:08:13
Colleen
<Ichiban> Really? my headcannon is telling me there is a way to port a lisp program as a web app.
17:09:06
Colleen
<|3b|> "a lisp program" isn't very specific. once you get specific, you would probably have to rewrite the entire engine
17:11:16
Colleen
<|3b|> and porting something designed for desktop opengl to "a web app" or "a mobile app", neither of which have desktop opengl, is not trivial
17:12:52
Colleen
<|3b|> currently for CL, you can run ecl on android, or buy lispworks, both of which would probably require porting and optimization for the specific implemention, etc
17:16:04
Colleen
<|3b|> and then there is the problem of trying to get enough money to notice from mobile stuff before the bigger companies clone it and throw a pile of money into marketing their clone
17:16:27
Colleen
<shinmera> mobile imo is an even worse market to try and get into than desktop or console.
17:16:53
Colleen
<shinmera> trying to sell premium apps is pretty much a doa deal, and if you're not going premium, you're gonna need to exploit your customers.
17:18:38
Colleen
<shinmera> I would wager that porn has probably the highest piracy rate of anything
17:20:11
Colleen
<|3b|> ACTION thinks porn industry could be interesting from a 3d graphics experimentation perspective, pretty much best case for rendering... very small fixed # of characters, small environment, etc so you can spend a lot of GPU on fancy effects compared to something more general
17:21:15
Colleen
<Ichiban> wait, that's about pets. Not the dating sim i was thinking of. unless....wait what ?
17:21:16
Colleen
<|3b|> and high-end graphics hardware requirements probably aren't the best fit for that market
17:21:38
Colleen
<shinmera> It is a game in the dating sim genre. It is completely safe for work and wholesome, though.
17:22:58
Colleen
<Ichiban> So what i'm hearing, is you have all the tools to make an XXX dating sim type thing, for atarget market willing to pay
17:23:49
Colleen
<|3b|> and having tools doesn't reduce the amount of art and writing you would need for a dating sim anyway
17:26:18
Colleen
<shinmera> Mobile and VR both are their own markets that have highly specialised types of experiences and customers (and for mobile revenue streams).
17:29:07
Colleen
<shinmera> No they don't. People will look on mobile for mobile-type games, on vr stores for vr-type games, and on pc/console for premium games.
17:29:35
Colleen
<Ichiban> i stopped playing fallout newvegas for a while to play fallout on mobile .
17:29:39
Colleen
<shinmera> The only competition is between console and PC, and console is on the losing side at this point in time.
17:31:40
Colleen
<|3b|> and how many of those would you notice without the fallout branding and marketing
17:32:05
Colleen
<|3b|> (and worse, how many would you notice once it was cloned and fallout branding/marketing added to the concept)
17:33:24
Colleen
<|3b|> also, at some point /everything/ is competing, you would have stopped playing the mobile game to watch a good fallout tv show
17:35:06
Colleen
<shinmera> The conclusions I've come to are that you need a lot of money to make a lot of money, and even if you have a lot of money you can still not get the lucky hit to make the money back
17:36:39
Colleen
<shinmera> And I guarantee you that there's a lot of really good games in there from really talented folks that tried really hard.
17:37:57
Colleen
<shinmera> You never hear about most people because, well, if you did, they probably had not failed :)
17:40:59
Colleen
<|3b|> though a lot of physical businesses like restaurants have much better "failure" than games. paying the operators a decent salary for a few years then running out of money and closing probably still counts as "failed"
17:41:46
Colleen
<shinmera> well, most proper indie studios also pay folks a salary during production
17:44:19
Colleen
<|3b|> ACTION more meant that the model there is "x years of success followed by failure" = "failure", while games are "
17:50:20
Colleen
<Ichiban> CL is the only language i like workign with, it sucks it's not more supported
17:53:00
Colleen
<|3b|> ACTION ran it once or twice to port some libraries to it, but that's about it
17:56:07
Colleen
<shinmera> I haven't run it myself, but have added patches to some libraries for it.
18:04:21
Colleen
<shinmera> I was initially hoping to combine the lisp gamejam with the new trial systems and pride month, but evidently things did not align
18:15:54
Colleen
<Ichiban> When i become emperor of the world i'm forcing everyone to use it. No more declarative langs
18:20:11
Colleen
<shinmera> Speaking of that, my new keychron q6 owns, but I've been having a weirdly high amount of double-presses on keys
18:20:23
Colleen
<|3b|> ACTION thinks "scene graph" is a bad/outdated abstraction and should be replaced :p
18:21:07
Colleen
<shinmera> I agree with the thought, but have been unable to come up with something else. It inevitably devolves into a scene graph.
18:21:17
Colleen
<|3b|> transform tree and whatever 'database' of objects fits how you want to render them
18:23:28
froggey
congrats on being the first person to get me to put something in my 2024 calendar haha
19:53:10
SAL9000
day2 is done, day1 is being (re)done having found some deficiencies in my approach while doing day2
20:16:44
SAL9000
Shinmera: silly question perhaps but have you seen any reasonable libraries/tools for (semi-)automatic video editing stuff? trying to figure out a way to reduce the scale of this workload for els'24
20:17:31
Colleen
<shinmera> there's some website that spits out ffmpeg commands from a more reasonable UI but I forget the name.
20:18:07
SAL9000
...true, but how would you contort that into (e.g.) detecting transitions from talk -> question -> response -> intermission based on a/v cues? maybe I'm trying to do too much lol
20:18:52
SAL9000
admittedly, I think I have a semi-workable set of compressor parameters to deal with the volume differences between Q & A by this point
20:19:23
Colleen
<shinmera> Detecting it is too hard, I'd just jot down timestamps during ELS and then cut it based on that.
20:19:25
SAL9000
half of what makes this a PITA is working with 8h-long video files is not exactly ergonomic but I want to avoid double re-encoding
20:20:44
SAL9000
I remember playing around with davinci resolve and suchlike, ended up running headfirst into "it expects Professional Input Formats" aka "your disk space? what disk space?"
20:21:35
Colleen
<shinmera> yeah that can be a problem, but you can remux an mkv to an mp4 in obs very quickly.
20:22:26
SAL9000
maybe I should try losslesscut or similar to pre-slice into smaller clips, so I'm not trying to work with the whole thing more than I have to
20:25:03
Colleen
<shinmera> I've tried a lot of tools and premiere sucks, but it sucked the least out of all I used.
20:25:34
SAL9000
I'm curious as to what bothered you in shotcut - I found it "good enough" for most of my purposes & simple to learn
20:26:00
Colleen
<shinmera> it's always taking way too long or crashes or the ui is inscrutable, or all of the above.
20:27:23
SAL9000
I must be hitting different codepaths or something then, I used shotcut for all the els video edits so far & almost zero crashes