libera/#shirakumo - IRC Chatlog

12:36:00 hamza Hello Everyone!

12:36:07 hamza Sorry I cut of yesterday

12:36:23 hamza There are constant power outages every few hours where I live.

12:36:37 hamza What became of: http://ix.io/4b3D ?

12:37:51 hamza I wanted to call a lisp function on a click of a button.

12:37:56 hamza However I wasn't able to do that.

12:38:30 hamza I tried using define-api, lquery and r-clip too.

12:41:29 Colleen <shinmera> https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/#shirakumo?around=1663778258#1663778258

12:42:02 hamza It says: "The Site Could Not Be Found

12:42:03 hamza We don't know what to deliver on this page. Are you sure the URL is correct and up-to-date?"

12:42:11 hamza :/

12:42:34 Colleen <shinmera> oh. what the heck

12:42:41 Colleen <shinmera> oohh. cause it didn't encode the #

12:42:41 hamza Also, Your paste website works now.

12:42:45 hamza Lol

12:42:52 hamza https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/3441#3441

12:42:52 Colleen <shinmera> https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/shirakumo?around=1663778258#1663778258

12:43:02 hamza Wow!

12:43:03 hamza Nice

12:44:47 hamza Oh, thanks.

12:45:18 hamza Is there a good frontend framework like Vue or Svelte in Common Lisp?

12:45:40 Colleen <shinmera> common lisp does not run in the browser, so there cannot be by definition.

12:45:46 hamza For Context: Svelte is a lot like Vue, however it compiles to raw HTML CSS and JS

12:45:56 hamza Oh, I see.

12:46:08 Colleen <shinmera> there is parenscript, which compiles a subset of common lisp to javascript, but I have never used it.

12:46:32 hamza Would you suggest I just stick to javascript :()

12:47:10 Colleen <shinmera> i don't know what you want to do, so I can't say. I always write my things without any javascript first, and then add whatever flavour or conveniencie with js on top.

12:47:45 hamza Okay, This is a really big project, the back and front is going to be very huge (atleast from what I planned)

12:48:03 hamza And It is going to be a Learning Management System for Schools

12:48:45 hamza Since I am mostly going to write this alone. I would want to use something I am quicker at using and have motivation to code in...

12:49:03 hamza Common Lisp.

12:49:37 Colleen <shinmera> I've written a lot of webapps with radiance is all I can say.

12:49:37 hamza My alternate plan is to use the compiled svelte code, and use those html and css files as input to Radiance.

12:49:58 hamza Shinmera: I WILL use Radiance for the backend

12:50:04 hamza There is no doubt in that.

12:50:44 hamza However, I want to search for a good frontend framework, you told me that there are compilers for Common Lisp to JS

12:50:59 hamza So I am just asking you for advice.

12:51:04 Colleen <shinmera> I haven't used any. I've only ever written plain ole js.

12:51:37 Colleen <shinmera> well, I did use Vue for the chat client thingy, since that didn't have a backend. I enjoyed some of that

12:52:13 hamza You think I should do the project in Svelte/Vue + Radiance then?

12:52:22 Colleen <shinmera> I have no idea.

12:52:44 hamza I explained the project.

12:52:45 Colleen <shinmera> As I said, I typically think about JS after I've done everything else.

12:53:11 hamza Okay.

12:53:23 hamza However, you do still need to think of JS at some point right?

12:53:37 Colleen <shinmera> eh. a lot of the apps do fine without any.

12:54:14 hamza Okay, so let's suppose I want to make that button example:

12:54:24 hamza https://codesandbox.io/s/svelte?file=/Button.svelte

12:54:38 hamza How would I do that without JS?

12:55:09 Colleen <shinmera> you send the counter to the server with a get/post parameter.

12:55:19 Colleen <shinmera> server renders new page using new counter value

12:55:38 Colleen <shinmera> optionally server stores counter so it persists

12:56:01 hamza So, on click it would auto update without refresh?

12:56:14 Colleen <shinmera> it would not, no. to do that you would need js.

12:56:36 hamza Okay.

12:57:04 hamza Thanks a lot Shinmera! Will look at a few more things and will get back to you on what I have decided!

12:57:10 Colleen <shinmera> sure.

12:57:22 Colleen <shinmera> have a look at the lengthy tutorial linked from the radiance docs.

12:57:28 hamza :)

12:57:31 Colleen <shinmera> that shows the typical development cycle intended for the framework.

12:57:39 hamza Yeah, I was following that.

12:57:51 hamza I made the plaster website till annotations and all that.

12:58:03 Colleen <shinmera> cool

12:58:19 hamza It was very cool. However something is bugging me about using JQuery, or LQuery.

12:58:33 hamza I know 80% of websites still use it.

12:58:39 hamza but like you know...

12:58:51 hamza It's kinda old now?

12:58:54 hamza no?

12:59:40 hamza Oh, yeah!

12:59:42 Colleen <shinmera> it doesn't use any jquery

12:59:50 hamza wait what?

13:00:01 hamza Isn't LQuery like JQuery?

13:00:13 Colleen <shinmera> it's modelled after jquery but it's a server side thing.

13:00:24 hamza Ohhhhhhhhh, I see.

13:00:29 Colleen <shinmera> it works fine for what it's meant to do, which is to modify a DOM quickly.

13:00:34 hamza So it's still pure HTML and CSS?

13:00:45 Colleen <shinmera> sure.

13:00:52 hamza Interesting...

13:00:58 Colleen <shinmera> in part 6 you add some js to add syntax highlighting to the editor.

13:01:07 hamza Ooooh.

13:01:18 hamza Ah, you excite me.

13:01:28 hamza I mean, you know what I mean.

13:01:38 hamza Like the project, not you.

13:01:50 Colleen <shinmera> Nothing wrong either way.

13:02:11 hamza :D

13:02:25 hamza Oh yeah!

13:02:28 hamza One more question

13:02:53 hamza I was wondering How I would go about combining the Server side with the Frontend.

13:03:01 hamza You seem to do it with LQuery.

13:03:26 hamza However, If I am using let's suppose, Vue or React. How would I send an api request?

13:03:49 Colleen <shinmera> lquery doesn't do anything on the frontend. it's used on the server when the page is rendered.

13:03:50 hamza Or Fetch data from a database which is handled by the backend.

13:04:22 hamza shinmera: Oh yeah, sorry, however, my question still stands.

13:04:27 Colleen <shinmera> you get the data using a standard ajax request to an API endpoint you define.

13:04:51 Colleen <shinmera> for instance Studio has an infinite scroll implementation.

13:05:26 hamza What is Studio?

13:05:39 Colleen <shinmera> https://github.com/Shirakumo/studio

13:07:27 hamza Cools

13:07:49 hamza Okay, this is interesting.

13:08:00 hamza That was probably a newbie question since I am a newbie in Web Dev

13:08:05 hamza In General.

13:08:38 Colleen <shinmera> I think the proliferation of JS in general has confused things greatly.

13:09:04 hamza Yeah bro, srsly.

13:09:10 Colleen <shinmera> back when I started out JS was still seen as one of those things you can't rely on because people might have it blocked or use a browser that doesn't support it well.

13:09:28 hamza Wow. No concept of that anymore.

13:09:52 Colleen <shinmera> yeah. I still write my sites so they're completely usable without js though. It's a fun challenge :)

13:10:01 hamza I wish we could just reinvent the web to be more simple.

13:10:02 Colleen <shinmera> (and I don't particularly enjoy writing js, so all fine by me)

13:10:15 hamza Shinmera: Wow, that's quite a challenge.

13:11:13 hamza You think it is possible to have an alternate stripped down site for No JS?

13:11:21 hamza Or is that just a waste of time

13:11:57 Colleen <shinmera> well as I said, all of my sites work that way. JS is just a layer of convenience on top. Like fetching stuff automatically instead of requiring a button click. Making some of the visualisations more nice. things like that.

13:11:59 hamza Since 99% of my target audience doesn't even know what JS ...

13:12:27 hamza *is ...

13:12:39 hamza I see.

13:12:45 hamza good perspective.

13:13:17 hamza What about things like GraphQL?

13:13:44 Colleen <shinmera> graphql is an over-engineered mess. I tried to write a client/server library for that like five times and gave up every time

13:14:19 Colleen <shinmera> REST apis also suck because they're not standardised nor discoverable

13:14:26 Colleen <shinmera> but at least they're simple to interface with.

13:14:41 hamza Interesting...

13:15:23 hamza I never really understood what a REST API even is.

13:15:53 Colleen <shinmera> A REST api is just "here are some urls and parameters for the urls that'll do some stuff when you request it."

13:16:25 Colleen <shinmera> typically it'll also return data encoded in json or something instead of an html website.

13:17:17 hamza Isn't that basically Radiance?

13:17:26 Colleen <shinmera> it's part of what radiance does

13:17:29 Colleen <shinmera> with define-api

13:17:36 hamza yeah.

13:17:47 hamza So then why don't you like them?

13:17:59 Colleen <shinmera> well as I said, it's not a standard

13:18:08 Colleen <shinmera> naming conventions across the web differ wildly

13:18:25 Colleen <shinmera> there's no way to programmatically "discover" what endpoints there are, what parameters and types it requires, etc.

13:18:28 hamza by standardized you mean like /api/random/bs or /random/bs/api/endpoint/lolcat

13:18:48 hamza Ah, so yes.

13:18:55 Colleen <shinmera> so writing a client for a REST service is always a lot of manual work of reading their docs, hoping they're accurat, and manually writing the endpoint wrappers.

13:19:01 hamza I was thinking about that a day or two ago.

13:19:26 hamza shinmera: What is your solution to that non-standardization?

13:19:32 Colleen <shinmera> I don't have one

13:19:38 hamza hmmm...

13:19:49 Colleen <shinmera> I think there's some attempts at standardising the discovery part at least but I've never bothered to look into it.

13:20:16 hamza Atleast you have a naming convention \_:)_/

13:20:29 Colleen <shinmera> I guess, yeah.

13:23:33 hamza Yeah, I think Common Lisp to Javscript Compilers are just a mess. I think I will stick to the more organized and well-known JS frontend frameworks with Radiance and interact with them with endpoints. After all, how much JS can it be? It's just a frontend.

13:23:53 hamza can there be*

13:23:56 hamza javascript*

13:24:06 hamza Too many I thinks*

13:24:16 Colleen <shinmera> sounds good to me :)

13:24:23 hamza Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

13:24:31 hamza Thanks Again Shinmera!

13:24:36 Colleen <shinmera> Sure

13:24:42 hamza You always solve any problems I am facing.

13:25:03 Colleen <shinmera> I feel like you're forgetting a lot of problems there

13:25:06 hamza And I am grateful for that.

13:25:15 hamza Well yeah...

13:25:20 hamza However, It was the big one

13:25:33 hamza It's not like I can't come here again, right?

13:25:42 Colleen <shinmera> it's an open channel

13:25:49 hamza Yeah, exactly.

13:25:53 Colleen <shinmera> can also just stick around :shrug:

13:26:20 hamza That would be Ideal, but you know, power outages and all that.

13:26:29 hamza You must be wondering where I live.e

13:26:30 Colleen <shinmera> where are you at?

13:26:33 Colleen <shinmera> heh

13:26:34 hamza lol

13:26:38 hamza Pakistan, Karachi

13:26:48 Colleen <shinmera> Ah, I see. Best of luck.

13:26:55 hamza Hahahaa, thanks

13:27:14 hamza Until then, I am here with you.

13:27:39 hamza Also, what problems did you have in mind when you said that I was forgetting a lot of problems.

13:27:58 Colleen <shinmera> I mean, in general I'm sure you must have a lot of other things to deal with that aren't related to web frameworks :^)

13:28:04 Colleen <shinmera> like taxes, exams, money

13:28:17 hamza Ah, I am just a 15 y/o

13:28:34 hamza I am lucky I have'nt grown up yet.

13:28:37 Colleen <shinmera> Heh.

13:28:44 hamza :D

13:29:00 hamza Although, I will probably have to worry about all that in 1-2 years.

13:29:07 Colleen <shinmera> I wrote a lotta web stuff around that age, though back then it was with PHP.

13:29:14 hamza Until then, I want to complete these projects.

13:29:18 hamza Ooh, PHP

13:29:30 hamza Sounds like Stone age.

13:29:55 hamza It's crazy how fast things start seeming old, especially with technology.

13:29:57 Colleen <shinmera> says the person wanting to use Lisp? :)

13:30:04 hamza Hahahaha

13:30:07 hamza LOL

13:30:14 hamza true that

13:30:57 hamza Now that I think about it I am using Svelte which was made 2 years ago or something, and Lisp which was like one of the first languages ever.

13:31:18 Colleen <shinmera> Mh, Common Lisp is very different from the first lisps

13:31:22 hamza And I am trying to combine them. Only works in this scenario with Common Lisp

13:31:24 hamza Yeah

13:31:39 hamza CL is great

13:33:40 Colleen <shinmera> Hmm. Doesn't look like I'm getting any work done today. Oh well.

13:33:57 Colleen <shinmera> |3b|: I did at least finally add outlining into Alloy

13:34:05 Colleen <shinmera> badly, though. Needs a cleaner impl later

13:34:49 Colleen <shinmera> guh, alloy/renderers/opengl/msdf.lisp is not a pretty sight

13:34:53 Colleen <shinmera> just a mess all over

13:35:18 Colleen <shinmera> I really wish I had the time/motivation to rewrite the layouter from first principles and make it cleas

13:35:19 Colleen <shinmera> *clean

13:35:29 Colleen <shinmera> but somehow I get the feeling I wouldn't be able to get it done

14:02:41 hamza Nice! I look forward to Alloy

14:02:50 hamza Eh, you will get it done shinmera.

14:02:54 hamza Don't worry

14:03:07 hamza You have already made so many things.

14:09:48 hamza Shinmera, What is this dm:hull thing?

14:10:01 hamza Why was there a need for a datamodel?

14:10:30 hamza I get the database abstraction.

14:11:08 hamza I looked at the code and only understood that it creates a datamodel.

14:19:50 hamza Also, why does there have to be a:

14:19:55 hamza <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">

14:20:01 hamza in the opening HTML tag?

14:56:42 Colleen <shinmera> a "hull" is an empty record

14:56:51 Colleen <shinmera> you need to put the data you want to insert somewhere, so that's where you put it.

14:57:06 Colleen <shinmera> the xmlns tag is to make this an XHTML document.

15:20:13 hamza Ah, okay. Thanks.