libera/#lisp - IRC Chatlog

16:53:20 x8dcc I think this is accurate: https://i.imgur.com/ZWoqgwO.png

16:58:32 Bubblegumdrop Oh man that's a doozy, (eq 'nil nil)

16:58:36 Bubblegumdrop @_@

16:59:04 Bubblegumdrop Oh That last bit too! oof

17:15:43 efti anyone knows eieio.el or CLOS assuming it is the same how do I arrange so that a method is called for an object immediately and always after instantiation? now I call them manually every time which is ugly and error-prone compared to automation, of course

17:17:35 efti like if one could to :after the constructor or something? how is that setup?

17:23:47 Bubblegumdrop well for clos I think you'd do something like (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((obj your-class) &rest initargs &key &allow-other-keys) ...)

17:24:23 Bubblegumdrop efti have you read "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" ? it's pretty good

17:24:43 Bubblegumdrop There are actually different ways to combine methods too

17:25:00 Bubblegumdrop most specific first, least specific first, nconc (in order of creation I believe)

17:38:38 efti yes I know, I read the eieio.el documentation

17:39:43 efti yeah, I think you are right! but run out of steam, I try it in one hour :)

17:40:03 efti and this isn't in the manual, I don't know why or maybe I didn't see it

17:41:26 x8dcc Normally, when tracing Lisp functions, the interpreter traces the actual function, right? Not the symbol

17:42:48 x8dcc So I can define `my-func' to be `list', and if I trace `my-func' then all calls to `list' are traced as well. Right?

20:02:28 levitating_ ** NICK levitating

20:14:49 edgar-rft_ x8dcc: not with SBCL -> https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/4610#4610

20:35:52 x8dcc edgar-rft_: Hmm... So you can only trace named functions, then?

20:49:19 keeliro Which Lisp community is the welcomest?

20:50:08 keeliro I think that vertical groups suck.

20:50:43 keeliro The only thing vertical which does not suck is software integration.

20:57:40 owen what is a vertical group?

21:59:17 Bubblegumdrop keeliro all of them

21:59:27 Bubblegumdrop x8dcc I think you can pass &rest to (trace ...)

21:59:45 Bubblegumdrop Invoking trace with one or more function-names causes the denoted functions to be ``traced.''

21:59:50 Bubblegumdrop This is from hyperspec

22:01:00 x8dcc Hmm... I changed it to use symbols but I think I rather use functions

22:02:17 Bubblegumdrop in my implementation (sbcl) trace is a macro so you don't pass symbols to it

22:02:23 Bubblegumdrop er, unquoted symbols

22:02:29 Bubblegumdrop (trace func) does what you expect

22:03:37 x8dcc And what do I expect? Tracing the symbols or the function itself?

22:05:57 Bubblegumdrop https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm

22:06:40 Bubblegumdrop Neat, I just learned about STEP https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm#step

22:06:52 Bubblegumdrop Did not know I could step through forms

22:07:06 Bubblegumdrop Very handy.

22:15:12 keeliro #emacs community is welcoming...its just that the ops are too bossy

22:15:38 keeliro and I hate harassment

22:16:06 keeliro I was very enthusiastic at the start

22:16:29 Bubblegumdrop don't stress about it, irc is life for some people

22:16:41 Bubblegumdrop bossy ops just doing what they think is best

22:16:47 x8dcc Never felt that way about #emacs

22:16:56 x8dcc But what is a vertical group?

22:16:58 keeliro All I know is that strict rules kill creativity

22:17:09 Bubblegumdrop not true :)

22:17:11 x8dcc That is very arguable

22:17:36 keeliro creativity flourishes with freedom...rules quench freedom

22:17:41 keeliro rules are impositions

22:17:48 x8dcc I would say strict rules can foment creativity to overcome those rules

22:18:04 keeliro what ?

22:18:13 x8dcc But I still don't get the point. I don't think IRC rules have anything to do with creativity

22:18:32 x8dcc More importantly: What is a vertical group?

22:18:38 keeliro strick rules make people be creative to circumvent them, is what you mean?

22:18:49 x8dcc Yes, sometimes

22:19:06 keeliro If you have a nazi regime, that is totally uncreative

22:19:12 keeliro only obedience counts

22:19:33 keeliro but there are different amounts of rules

22:19:59 keeliro and the more strict the rules are, people are forced to do instead of motivated

22:20:22 keeliro a vertical social structure is one with hierarchies

22:20:41 keeliro a horizontal one is one with equality

22:20:46 keeliro a democratic one

22:20:50 x8dcc No offense, but what do you expect? No rules, no ops, and no hierarchies?

22:21:05 keeliro of creative spaces, yes

22:21:10 keeliro for armies, no

22:21:48 x8dcc I don't know what a "creative space" is, but I am pretty sure IRC is not one.

22:22:14 keeliro it is, in some places

22:22:49 x8dcc So you don't want rules in IRC

22:22:49 keeliro a creative space is one where people are motivated to be creative

22:23:05 keeliro only rulemakers like rules

22:23:11 x8dcc Right...

22:23:15 keeliro the rest are obedient

22:23:23 keeliro obedient people are not creative

22:24:02 keeliro motivation does not require rules

22:24:05 tumdum ACTION takes out popcorn

22:24:30 Alfr tumdum, oh, thanks!

22:24:54 x8dcc Thank God for motivation, if you know what I mean... (I don't)

22:24:59 keeliro you will never see an artist be forced by rules to produce his art

22:25:13 ieure I see that my immediate reaction of "by 'channels that suck,' they probably mean 'ones where they get sick of my bullshit'" is turning out to be prescient.

22:25:17 keeliro motivation moves the world

22:25:30 x8dcc Amen to that, brother

22:25:49 keeliro of course...nobody promotes something where he is unwelcome

22:26:03 x8dcc I am a bit lost. Promoting what?

22:27:01 keeliro never mind...I just made a comment... I do not want to explain what is just rejected

22:27:31 x8dcc Right, sorry.

22:27:43 keeliro if yo do not share my view, I do not need to convince you

22:28:04 keeliro you*

22:29:26 x8dcc I don't think I understand your view, that's all

22:29:40 bjorkintosh keeliro: well that's no way to gather followers, you have to convince them! unless you don't want followers.

22:30:14 x8dcc I just don't see the relationship of all this with #emacs :/

22:30:21 Bubblegumdrop keeliro is this what you were talking about in #emacs? It seems a bit off topic to me. I can understand why the ops might feel "bossy" towards you.

22:30:32 Bubblegumdrop don't sweat it...

22:30:50 x8dcc (And #emacs can get very off-topic sometimes)

22:31:09 Bubblegumdrop I don't know what the etiquitte on off topic is. It's probably fine?

22:31:46 Bubblegumdrop I know other lisp channels can get quite off topic as well.

22:32:18 x8dcc This really is a Creative Space™

22:33:22 Bubblegumdrop My little puppy is so affectionate ;w;

22:46:54 keeliro they consider freedom off topic in #emacs

22:47:10 keeliro emacs was started for freedom

22:47:19 keeliro I guess that has changed

22:48:05 keeliro stallman is horizontal but has a bossy attitude

22:48:09 x8dcc Dude, I just read why they kicked you and it had nothing to do with freedom...

22:48:25 keeliro it is how it started

22:48:39 keeliro you just read the last part

22:48:41 owen i like freedom

22:48:52 Alfr Interesting.

22:48:56 keeliro that's 2 of us!

22:49:09 Alfr keeliro, so, what makes you think that it may end differently here?

22:49:43 keeliro if it is as trolly as #emacs, nothing

22:49:45 x8dcc What last part? I read everything since you said you fixed your bouncer

22:50:09 keeliro it was before I had a bouncer

22:50:54 keeliro it does not seem you want to know my take...it is useless to continue

22:51:48 x8dcc I want to know, but maaaybe #lisp has nothing to do with vertical groups and nazi creativity

22:56:17 keeliro exactly

22:57:39 keeliro !I want to know" does seems to be contradictory with "maaaybe #lisp has nothing to do with vertical groups and nazi creativity"

22:57:49 keeliro "I want to know" does seems to be contradictory with "maaaybe #lisp has nothing to do with vertical groups and nazi creativity"

22:58:02 keeliro "I want to know" seems to be contradictory with "maaaybe #lisp has nothing to do with vertical groups and nazi creativity"

22:58:04 keeliro sorry

22:58:20 keeliro perhaps a sed was enough

22:58:49 keeliro nazi creativity also seems an oxymoron

22:59:29 x8dcc Don't even know what to say anymore, man.

23:00:26 x8dcc Just feel free to elaborate, I guess.

23:15:28 keeliro glad to hear it is allowed to disent here, or not?

23:17:40 Bubblegumdrop Your chats are definitely off topic but this channel isn't as heavily moderated as #emacs. There are other IRC servers you know

23:50:34 keeliro yes...I found them....they are much more tolerant with differences

23:50:48 keeliro and integrate people well

23:51:30 keeliro beliefs are respected....even if senseless.....why not copy that good process

23:54:27 wasamasa different communities have different values

23:55:23 wasamasa there are more than enough stories why blindly copying the values from another community leads to doom, so why not enjoy your stay over there

23:56:18 wasamasa I really do wish it was possible to have a sensible conversation with you about matters more high-level than "how do I use elisp to process some convoluted XML?"

23:58:06 wasamasa that was like, the only fruitful thing I've talked with you about, everything else, not a chance

23:58:09 keeliro it is a question of opinion

23:58:59 keeliro why argue about tastes

23:59:01 keeliro ?

23:59:11 keeliro it is a waste of time

23:59:25 keeliro it is better to build together

23:59:40 keeliro or not?

23:59:42 wasamasa you repeatedly bringing up this topic in here despite not a single soul caring about it is a waste of time

23:59:55 keeliro I only respond

0:00:12 wasamasa no, you bring it up every now and then and wait whether someone takes the bait

0:01:00 keeliro why do I have to agree with you in order to have a sensible conversation, is the important thing

0:01:24 keeliro never mind, it is useless

0:01:38 wasamasa all that matters is you trying to be honest for a second

0:02:00 keeliro I will not even respond to that rude statement

0:02:02 wasamasa "Yes, I did in fact start this discussion for no reason, rather than merely replying"

0:03:29 keeliro You are implying that I am dishonest. But that feeling is inside of you. I did not say it. It was you. So it must be you with that character.

0:04:04 wasamasa it is very easy to scroll up in the backlog and see your first message today

0:04:14 keeliro but I invite you to a private conversation for that type of talk.

0:04:40 wasamasa I invite you to stop lying

0:04:54 wasamasa I invite you to be the best possible version of yourself

0:05:05 wasamasa I invite you to make the most of your smarts

0:05:09 keeliro If I were to lie, I would not need your permission.

0:05:57 keeliro If I were to change my actions, I would not listen to unbacked suggestions.

0:06:23 wasamasa all these rules you hate so much exist to have the freedom of getting rid of shitty people and your behavior of intentionally refusing to comply only makes you inch closer to those shitty people, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

0:06:41 keeliro that is not universal

0:07:02 keeliro it is partial...just opinion of some

0:07:11 wasamasa no, that is specific to channels such as #emacs

0:07:22 keeliro it is as valid as any other opinion

0:07:56 keeliro force does not seek truth...but imposition of opinions

0:08:33 keeliro anyway...good luck

0:08:58 wasamasa with what?

0:13:27 keeliro with anything

0:13:40 wasamasa I'm good, thank you

0:13:46 keeliro cool

0:24:41 owen exercise the freedom to discuss lisp

0:25:56 keeliro I'm up for that

1:53:02 Bubblegumdrop Can XML be parsed?

1:53:10 Bubblegumdrop I suppose XML is supposed to be well formed?

1:53:15 Bubblegumdrop Perhaps "well formed XML" is parseable

1:53:25 Bubblegumdrop Isn't that a meme? You cannot parse HTML something something he comes zalgo?

1:53:56 Bubblegumdrop https://www.cliki.net/CL-XML

1:56:01 Bubblegumdrop Ah, obsolete

3:06:05 tgbugs_ ** NICK tgbugs

3:44:36 Lord_of_Life_ ** NICK Lord_of_Life

3:49:39 keeliro I have a script in elisp which extracts some information from an xml document