libera/#commonlisp - IRC Chatlog
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18:48:27
pjb
Josh_2: too bad he doesn't have a persistent nick, we will have to re-explain everything!
19:03:50
Guest74
pjb: all the guest nicks are persistent. Now if you explained anything to any guest accounts recently then maybe whatever is logging the channel is getting kicked as often as I am.
19:09:12
pjb
Perhaps with a real nick you wouldn't get kicked so often? Or at least, you could still be you.
19:10:09
Bike
you're not getting kicked. your client apparently sucks and is not responding to pings, so libera drops you.
19:19:29
Bike
the channel is being logged fine. pjb is merely referring to the inconvenience of your weird refusal to get an actual name.
19:22:08
Guest74
just cant be bothered when this thing remembers me perfectly. What's weird is how much it bothers some people.
19:23:01
Bike
i don't think it bothers anybody very much. it bothers many people a bit, in the same way that going through the effort to take thirty seconds to configure your client is too bothersome for you.
19:24:50
Bike
it's not a big deal or anything. just one of those weird little personal quirks that make talking to people online just a little more annoying for everyone.
19:25:56
Guest74
hey, i find it annoying that people don't use their real names as their nicks, but I don't go around complaining to everybody.
19:27:17
Guest74
sure, I'm named with a consistent identifier as well as peoples whose nicks have nothing to do with their names..
19:27:28
mfiano
I think they are just looking for attention. When we set +R during a flood they might reconsider.
19:28:32
yitzi
Guest74: When a plurality of the residents of this channel tell you that they find it irritating that you won't pick a nickname and you respond that you "just cant be bothered" that is a direct statement of how much you value their opinions/irritation.
19:29:37
Bike
because it would be so little effort on your part. easier than arguing about it, even. so your stated reason for refusal is just that you don't mind us being annoyed.
19:29:54
rotateq
and I see a nickname as a nice opportunity to express something about what drives one inside :)
19:30:04
Guest74
They want me to research and install a client, configure it, register a nick somewhere somehow, all so that they wont be bother by seeing the exact same consistent nick over and over again.
19:30:23
Bike
no, i want you to use your web client to pick a name. they pretty much all do that. web.libera.chat does.
19:31:04
Bike
because you entered it once and it stuck with that. if you entered something else it would stick with something else.
19:31:34
mfiano
It won't stick with that if you leave and the nick generator assigns that name to someone else.
19:31:39
Bike
it even lets you hook in your nickserv registration and you won't need to remember your password or anything.
19:31:39
Guest74
ffs, I'm really tired of the whole, oh you're so inconsiderate because you don't do things the way we do things and we'll judge you from that standpoint without even giving a thought to your point of view.
19:32:06
Bike
your point of view is that you don't care about our annoyance because you don't want to take thirty seconds to configure your client. i have considered your viewpoint and do not consider it worthwhile.
19:33:41
Bike
my least favorite part of being a moderator is when someone is a little bit of an asshole, but not enough that i feel justified in kicking them immediately.
19:35:36
mfiano
yitzi: The IRC server chooses a random guest name if one is not selected that is not already assigned.
19:38:30
yitzi
mfiano: Thanks. Seems a bit odd that the system permits reuse of the same handles. Probably b.c. the idea that someone would want to keep the same guest handle is bizarre.
19:38:31
Bike
oh, if you're asking whether i feel justified kicking guest74, still not really. they just ragequit, i guess.
20:09:16
contrapunctus
I keep forgetting I've been told to not use emoji here. Used them twice today itself.
20:11:05
rotateq
Josh_2: something wents wrong when i try loading that package since i updated to emacs 28, but hey
23:14:57
seok
damn, mfiano-utils is too advanced for me. It's just giving me more lisp books to read
2:10:55
jeosol
Good morning all! Been a while since I have been here. Hope everyone is doing well ...
3:26:43
beach
jeosol: I think phoe is taking some time off, but if there is a suggested presentation for the online Lisp meeting, I suspect he would be willing to organize it.
3:33:23
jeosol
but schedule has dropped for a few months - was just busy with some other non-CL stuff.
3:34:11
jeosol
Though software is never finished, my project is done for a few months now, I usually make small changes, and upgrade SBCL compilers at month end and fix any issues that crop up
3:35:29
jeosol
beach: thanks beach, you and the lispers here were helpful in that regard especially resolving issues with threads, CLOS, and macros
3:36:15
jeosol
I am looking to deploy the workers which are essentially CL repls. I tried docker, other's have proposed kubernetes which I hear has a high learning schedule but has benefits of auto-scaling up and down (I am a noob)
3:36:46
jeosol
I just wanted to test it by putting a worker and try to load it. I can run things on a small box and it holds well.
3:37:32
jeosol
I don't think people appreciate CL enough: so many aspects to love from developer productivity, CLOS, ..., to great performance on number crunching application
3:38:16
jeosol
but I still get people say Lisp? what is that? and why I use emacs. I have since learned not to engage anymore - can't lose brain cells to this type of arguments
3:49:45
beach
jeosol: Yes, I stopped engaging a long time ago. The only way to try to convince (some) people is to show good work.
3:50:35
beach
jeosol: SICL is making progress, but very slow progress right now. It's just a matter of lack of inspiration. I am not working on anything else very actively right now.
3:51:54
jeosol
beach: I agree, engaging in that discussion is frustrating - so I took advice from the likes of you and others. I can't be trying to convince someone who doesn't understand what I am doing. They say why I don't use python like others , lol
3:53:01
beach
One silver lining is that the people who come here are usually more open minded than the ones you are referring to.
3:53:09
jeosol
Josh_2: my project is something that will be really had to describe as it does a lot of things: Optimization, Machine Learning (limited, but can call scikit-learn libraries via exernal Python scripts, Physics Simulation, ...)
3:53:38
jeosol
seok: haha, I know. Some of the applications don't make sense to even use Python, I mean the latter has it's place
3:54:46
jeosol
beach: You mean lack of inspiration -- hopefully it can come back. I know how that is
3:55:42
Josh_2
I have been slowly chipping at some very boring code, almost done and can go work on something I started a while ago but had to put to one side
3:55:58
Josh_2
Its nice to work on newer projects where there is a lot more freedom in design, thats the fun part imo
3:56:24
jeosol
seok: many people use Python, either for DS/ML/AI work so it's common with many new developers.
3:57:06
jeosol
Josh_2: I agree, I work on different parts of my application depending on how I feel, some parts are bad to work in due to poor initial design - sometimes, I just bite the bullet and go through a day of refactoring work
3:57:15
seok
yeah, python is good when there are prebuilt libraries written in C or something that python is calling from
3:58:19
jeosol
seok: I think that's for most of the ML work, numpy, jax and tensorflow having underlying C or C++ implementation
3:59:29
seok
Deep learing is great for a lot of things but I think it's a bit too overcrowded. I don't like doing things others are doing
4:00:40
beach
jeosol: I am still working on bootstrapping with the goal of creating an executable file, but there are tons of minor things that have to be taken care of as well.
4:00:42
jeosol
seok: haha, that's funny - the different frameworks and architectures that come out everyday makes the area like a joke now. Everyone and their mother is open sourcing language models every day
4:01:56
jeosol
beach: my short coming is that I am not a compiler guy (my usual excuse) but recently finished the algorithms course so I write use appropriate data structures, write better and efficient code
4:02:57
jeosol
it's almost like the space is not much science any more, tweak this, tweak that, get 0.1 % accuracy with massive GPUs (millions of dollars compute time) and then declare victory
4:03:04
seok
I am learning linguistics slowly because I want to try developing a non-nn language parser and meaning representation someday
4:03:44
beach
jeosol: No excuse needed. It's just a matter of taking the time to read the literature. But one has to have the time and the interest in the subject, of course.
4:03:48
jeosol
someone must be working with AI here using CL. I remember a company, mind.ai said they were developing a chat bot using CL NLP
4:05:47
jeosol
beach: I agree with that. I probably be a better coder if try to get deeper on implementation side. Remember when hayley implemented some hash lib (?) in the past - I was reading about hashing and methods to avoid collisions etc
4:11:30
jeosol
seok: I don't have much NLP experience but I got an old CL book on Natural Language Process in Lisp by Gerald Gazdar and Chris Mellish
4:13:07
seok
Well if you know a book like that, I bet you are more knowledgeable than I am in the area
4:14:07
jeosol
Oh no, I just got it out of the shelf now to look at the name and authors. I have not worked with it at all. It was something I am interested in and saw on ebay
4:18:44
seok
I think it requires quite a bit of linguistic knowledge as well if you want to deal with human languages
4:19:21
jeosol
that is true. My initial focus was developing an expert system if I can capture known and use that to call my CL code to do evaluations
4:20:02
jeosol
but I will settle for a proof of concept by using Python as a front stack, and call CL
4:20:51
jeosol
It's more like, medical diagnosis tools in the 80's. Where you go with rules, if this, then that, if that, then this. .. from facts to conclusions
4:22:06
jeosol
well, I just want to use simple prompts. Please tell me input for X, I capture it, ... like that
4:23:42
jeosol
I think it's easy that way. no backtracking to catch errors. If users give a string intead of an int, agent should now and ask for better input. This is probably easy to do with some loop I guess
4:24:47
jeosol
For example, I can say: "evaluate the square of 2" and I should be able to parse it for the function and argument to the function
4:27:05
jeosol
that's true. speech to text for me is way out. Even the text to command. I don't have time to pursue it anymore
4:28:48
White_Flame
I've been wanting to build a solid gofai nlp system for years as well, still designing & reading up
4:29:04
seok
If it's done non-NN way, it means the parameters to generate voice acoustics is known, that means nobody needs voice actors anymore
4:30:53
White_Flame
their goal is to have logical representation of "common sense knowledge"about the world
4:31:44
White_Flame
jeosol: well,it's complicated. :) But certainly lisp and forward chaining systems
4:31:50
jeosol
White_Flame: that's one thing that made me interested in it, but I met a MIT AI person who said Lenat's approach is flawed
4:32:31
jeosol
White_Flame: I imagine it is, and they have been adding to it and extending it. I remember seeing a job posting like 2 years ago
4:33:40
White_Flame
basically they do a lot of inferene work per client they get in order to have it run their work quickly
4:34:18
White_Flame
in terms of finding where the inference gets confused or spins off infinitely looking for answers, an hardcoding modules to help it solve those problems more directly
4:34:55
White_Flame
their knowledge base & ontology of common sense is considered pretty complete by now, iirc
4:36:29
White_Flame
dmiles was the resident cyc expert, he worked for & with cycorp a lot, but I don't see him in here now
4:37:27
White_Flame
but anyway, the more I get into nlp, and all the implicit communication that happens between humans with it, the less I consider it a logical programming problem
4:38:50
White_Flame
so I'm trying to do more modeling of the mind, trying to have it do inductive reasoning and triggering memories of similar things (of any scale) as 2 of the more important bootstrapping facilities it seems to nee
4:41:40
White_Flame
the ultimate description of the "intelligence" I'd like to build is the ship computer from tng/voyager
4:43:02
jeosol
I did interface with him when I was trying to get into the space. I will probably get to the logicmoo discord group again
4:43:24
seok
The problem with "developing the mind" I see which seems to be popular in ML world for a while is that it is congruent with the fundamental philosophical questions
4:44:59
White_Flame
seok: there's 2 ways to word that, one is an emergent mind (ML statistical blub), the other is designing features of the mind
4:49:51
jeosol
White_Flame: this is a very interesting project. How different is it from the approach Miles and his group and working on? And is it possible to crowd fund it, gather a small team, etc
4:50:50
White_Flame
dmiles has his very specific model of the mind as parallel streams of tokenize narrative. I'm not really convinced of that model
4:51:23
White_Flame
but that's common in AI land; everybody has their own vision of what the missing/basic ingredient is
4:53:47
jeosol
mind.ai guys said they are developing a unique and new system, I don't remember the details, but they use SBCL and Lispworks I think
4:54:02
White_Flame
as well as dredging up old papers from the 60s-80s and their respective tools in the fiel
4:55:05
White_Flame
I don't talk about my system much, because I don't think it's useful to make claims about speculative AI projects until they show actual results
4:55:33
White_Flame
been too much of that over the years and it never accomplishes anything positive
4:55:48
jeosol
I have no idea. I suppose perhaps to target certain systems with Lispworks (I am not expert here) where it generates some exes?
4:56:46
White_Flame
seok: NLP is one facet of the AI understanding. this all came about as a tool in service of automated reverse engineering work I've been working on for a long time
4:57:20
jeosol
seok: I suspect that's why. They probably use SBCL where possible for dev and test, and the use Lispworks for that. I only used free Lispworks version long time ago
4:57:23
White_Flame
but I believe organized thought is rooted in language. non-language thinking/understanding exists, but does not scale without language IMO
4:57:48
seok
automated reverse engineering, like parsing major programming language code and interpreting it?
4:58:13
White_Flame
binary reverse engineering, which could also be applied to bytecodes, textual formats, et
4:59:25
White_Flame
they allow humans to do more work, but they don't do the thinking work for the humans
5:00:21
White_Flame
conceptualized, ability to dialogue about it (and learn & receive feedback/changes), and explainable
5:00:49
seok
It's interesting that you've thought that NLP will be a significant tool for binary parsing
5:01:09
White_Flame
it's not, but it's a significant tool for communicating broad information to the machine
5:01:09
Nilby
one would think it should be obvious by now, that for abiliites like language, it's not possible to have >94% person ablity, without having a person. chess, sure. driving, maybe. but language and thinking, you it can only be fake or real, and straddling the line is unethical torture
5:04:45
seok
what test? what is being measured here? how like-human an NLP machine can generate human language?
5:05:43
Nilby
but passing a secondary school test doesn't really make for acceptable language proficiency, as we can observe
5:07:03
seok
that's what I would think: that such test to quantify language ability as a percentage comparison of a human's would be extremely difficult or impossible to produce
5:08:22
White_Flame
there are nlp challenges out there, and code struggles to get over 95% accuracy, even for things like part-of-speech tagging over large corpuses
5:09:02
White_Flame
I think the state of the art is probably like 97% now, but even then that's like 1 in 30 word/phrases/etc are misunderstood
5:09:51
seok
I don't think part-of-speech is difficult, sure there are ambiguous sentences but syntax trees have been around for very long time?
5:11:32
White_Flame
and one of the biggest challenges, where AI/context/common-sense come in are resolving pronouns
5:11:55
Nilby
they will always have trouble with it, because language is deeply dependent on cognition, it doesn't make logical sense to have a person cognition which isn't a person
5:12:01
White_Flame
"The trophy would not fit in the suitcase because it was too big". What is "it"?
5:21:44
seok
It's fascinating how we have made so much progress in some areas of NLP yet made so little progress in others
5:26:47
hayley
White_Flame: You mentioned automated reverse engineering; I've had "interactive tool for de-obfuscating JS" planned for a while, but never made much of an advance on it.
5:28:08
hayley
There's some obvious stuff, like giving variables better names (in my experience, slot names are less frequently obfuscated, oddly enough), and then partial/abstract interpretation and constant folding would be useful too.
5:32:02
Nilby
yes, the difficultly of that shows there's some amount of art and thought, even in JS code
5:34:15
hayley
I disagree with that. It's more evidence that, while there are infinitely many programs that have equivalent semantics, quite few are pleasing to read.
5:36:02
hayley
The only definition I can provide is the lack of obfuscation techniques, which is not a very good definition.
5:39:44
Nilby
in one way, the asm that sbcl spits out, is more "good" at distilling my inention than my source
5:45:39
hayley
One counter-example could be constant folding, if a more complex expression conveys my intent better than a folded (yet still equivalent) expression. A compiler would try to generate code with constants folded, however.
5:46:57
seok
well, the primary motif of eastern philosophy is balance, that there are good and bad sides in everything
5:48:18
seok
There is no determined answer to these questions, but as a programmer we need to make a choice
5:49:00
Nilby
sometimes i look at disassemble, and realize a profusion of macros is just an "add" and that's what i should have wrote, but of course most looking at disassemble is struggle to figure out what it's doing
5:51:09
Nilby
sometimes, especially when i see people here arguing about what is fastest way to do X