libera/#commonlisp - IRC Chatlog

19:59:52 aeth Maybe I could throw a CAS on the list as well, but Maxima is written in such a way that its internals aren't very useful for other CL projects afaik. Mainly because it's really, really old, though.

20:01:30 Nilby It's true I wish I could easily use Maxima's stuff. wxMaxima is so cool, but I wish it was all in Lisp.

20:02:20 aeth It doesn't help that iirc a huge chunk of Maxima is written in (probably ancient) Fortran and then compiled (in a poorly optimized way) to CL

20:03:19 aeth The way you'd want to do it if you started from scratch is probably to write a BLAS in CL, which is mostly just porting a permissive licensed BLAS (if there is one) to use CL inline asm on implementations that support it, and using the slow path for the rest of the implementation x architecture grid.

20:05:42 Nilby And written in mathematicians and physicists coding styles.

20:05:42 lotuseater Nilby: in one talk of Robert Smith about maths with CL he says "don't look at maxima source" :D

20:06:27 Nilby Yes. I like to, but it's not for the faint of heart.

20:06:27 lotuseater maybe the same goes for ROOT, but it seems to work well

20:07:12 lotuseater I don't like the not expressive names in maxima, it could improve doing that like Mathematica (just imo)

20:07:38 lotuseater but then no maxima code written will work

20:10:25 Nilby One of my favorite *old* Lisp code is SHRDLU. It's sometimes written almost in a Haskell style. When I first read it I was like "WT-holy-F is this??" Total nonsense. Now I can read it and see it's fairly brilliant.

20:10:56 lotuseater oooh yes i like the dialogue in gödel escher bach with SHRDLU

20:11:10 lotuseater do you have a link?

20:11:30 White_Flame it really helps to read the phd thesis along with the shrdlu source code, at least to begin understanding it

20:11:47 lotuseater maybe i'll finally get then how to do ai in CL ._.

20:11:51 White_Flame https://github.com/stuartpb/shrdlu

20:12:03 White_Flame shrdlu is not really extensible

20:12:05 lotuseater what was the original dialect?

20:12:38 White_Flame old

20:13:30 White_Flame maclisp according to that github link

20:13:53 White_Flame enjoy your fexprs

20:14:41 lotuseater hmm

20:15:42 Nilby ACTION is looking for his shrdlu that works in CL.

20:17:34 adlai jasom: you just made me read CL code that has defmethod with self as an argument name

20:17:42 White_Flame the original source is almost like assembly code. I'm sure it could be rewritten to less than 1/10th the size in modern style

20:17:54 adlai ACTION is angered

20:18:41 lotuseater yes it reads not very condense

20:19:12 White_Flame old CL code is extremely mutating to avoid blowing memory on 70s hardware

20:19:36 White_Flame erm, 1960s :-P

20:21:18 White_Flame s/CL/Lisp/

20:22:39 waleee-cl is there anyone using parinfer-rust-mode in emacs?

20:22:45 daphnis what do you do when emacs indents badly; just correct it manually and avoid auto-indenting? e.g. the first form in Practical p. 330 is illogically indented by emacs.

20:22:56 phoe daphnis: which chapter is that?

20:23:04 daphnis parsing binary files

20:23:27 phoe defun read-u2?

20:23:33 dbotton__ (First thing I do is assume I am wrong not emacs :)

20:23:35 White_Flame indentation can also change if for instance the code uses a macro, but the macro hasn't been loaded in yet

20:23:39 daphnis (define-binary-type iso-88 .....

20:23:40 phoe which form do you mean?

20:24:06 phoe oh! have you called DEFMACRO DEFINE-BINARY-TYPE?

20:24:16 daphnis hm, no

20:24:56 White_Flame SLIME knows about the &body field in macros and indents them as code instead of data

20:24:59 daphnis now i have, indentation is unchanged

20:25:35 daphnis the (let in the third line is aligned with the (in in the 2nd

20:26:00 Nilby Yes, I just correct it and avoid. Emacs can never duplicate the indenting artistry you can achive with multiple-cursor mode.

20:26:19 phoe oh, like that!

20:26:21 phoe yes, I see

20:26:48 White_Flame daphnis: yep, there's no way for slime to know the intent here

20:27:07 White_Flame so it makes some guesses

20:27:07 Nilby but, yeah, always use &body when you want that.

20:27:29 White_Flame this is nested underneat macro parameters, though

20:27:53 phoe let me check if trivial-indent can fix this

20:27:56 White_Flame nested forms inside "&body spec)"

20:29:16 _death there is some broken indentation in default slime.. try for example (incf place RET

20:30:47 phoe !

20:30:50 phoe (trivial-indent:define-indentation define-binary-type (4 4 &rest (&whole 2 4 4 &body)))

20:30:54 phoe this thing seems to kinda work

20:31:16 phoe https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2193#2193

20:38:49 daphnis phoe: thanks!

20:40:25 phoe trivial-indentation needs to get a proper manual someday

20:48:53 tomaw_ ** NICK tomaw

20:54:23 White_Flame Nilby: ever find your CL SHRDLU?

20:58:00 Nilby I did. But it failed to load, and I'm trying to avoid getting lost for days in the past again. I should post it someday. I think I started with this: https://github.com/tsgouros/www-shrdlu.git

20:58:40 White_Flame yeah, I found that one

20:59:12 White_Flame if I were to throw my hand into Yet Another SHRDLU Resurrection, I'd just start from first principles from the thesis and not from the code

21:00:16 Nilby Yes. My interest was mostly historical not so much as practical.

21:02:10 Nilby Someday I'll feel the clock ticking slowly enough to finish it.

21:04:53 Nilby It's like museum code.

21:59:06 jasom adlai: you're welcome :D

22:04:20 jasom It also has a tagbody inside of a block, so it was written before I knew that prog has an implicit tagbody

22:09:04 Xach jasom: i just learned that lesson today!

22:09:16 Xach what a coincidence

22:25:32 nij Is using data as config a common practice among LISPers?

22:26:09 jasom nij: configuration is data, can you clarify what you mean?

22:27:15 nij Hmm.. instead of using formats like .YAML, why not just use .LISP?

22:27:52 jasom ah, as in use a source-file as configuration? It's definitely a thing.

22:28:07 nij Something like this: '("Monday" "Upper" ("Push-ups 15" "Pull-up 1" "Push-ups 15" "Pull-up 1"))

22:28:16 nij jasom: anything

22:29:33 jasom nij: I've seen it like (defparameter *some-config-option* some-value) and the configuration file loaded with cl:load and I've also seen it like ((:some-config-option . some-value)) and the configuration file loaded with cl:read

22:29:37 nij I wonder why it isn't common practice. Like.. is it error-prone?

22:29:40 jasom nij: there's probably other was its done as well.

22:30:53 jasom I do it that way unless someone else is going to configure the file; people unused to lisp are more likely to be comfortable editing a .yaml or .json file (and their editor is more likely to be configured to help them do so)

22:34:15 badcfe is there an "international standard" for lisp? maybe X3J13/94-101R equals CLT2 but is ansi only. is ISLISP the thing, but there's no "public domain" implementations?

22:36:55 no-defun-allowed Well, ISLISP isn't Common Lisp.

22:37:25 badcfe no-defun-allowed: but is it the closest one, with an international standard?

22:37:29 jasom I don't think X3.226 was ever ISO standardized

22:37:43 no-defun-allowed I don't know how close ISLISP is to Common Lisp, but my guess is it is quite different.

22:39:04 badcfe i came across this which seems really nice

22:39:05 badcfe https://franz.com/support/documentation/cl-ansi-standard-draft-w-sidebar.pdf

22:39:26 badcfe but thats ansi common lisp i see

22:39:38 jasom ISLISP is pretty close to a subset of common lisp

22:39:55 badcfe oh, that sounds good then.

22:40:12 edgar-rft The original idea of the ANSI folks was to include Europe and Japan into the specification process but the ARPA-net was too slow for that, so I think the ANSI spec ist the only official specification until today.

22:40:16 jasom though I can't for the life of me remember if it's lisp-1 or lisp2

22:40:18 badcfe i mean, as a newb i could learn it, and then be fine in CL as well

22:40:55 jasom badcfe: I would recommend learning common lisp instead; islisp is a smaller community than CL, and it's not like the CL community is large

22:41:00 badcfe "arpa net was too slow for that" ?

22:42:02 edgar-rft badcfe: the email communication took too long, Kent Pitman wrote up the details somewhere in his homepage

22:43:09 badcfe is CL community small because learning to think in it you become a compiler writer for other languages to get away from the parenths and then resulting in popularity and bringing in nice ideas to those other languages?

22:44:07 no-defun-allowed What the fuck?

22:44:09 Xach badcfe: no

22:44:19 badcfe why does not ieee iso or anyone raise ansi spec up to international standard instead of this ISLISP thing?

22:44:31 jasom badcfe: who will pay for it?

22:44:58 no-defun-allowed Does it really matter if it's an ANSI standard or an ISO standard?

22:44:59 Xach badcfe: ANSI Common Lisp exists because a big customer demanded it. there is no big customer in sight to do it these days.

22:45:00 White_Flame besides, we're in a post-standards world for the most part (love it or hate it)

22:45:10 badcfe they can just trust ansi and fetch the pdf and stamp it

22:46:28 White_Flame regarding size of the community, a lot of that has to do with commercializing the community as well

22:46:54 Alfr badcfe, why are you looking for a lisp w/ international standard?

22:46:56 badcfe i am trying to understand why lisp is not more 'endoursed' (or term like that)

22:47:01 White_Flame lisp really offers developer empowerment directly, so you don't have the "support groups" of people trying to get around limitations as much as other langs do, and that activity drives engagement

22:47:34 Xach badcfe: many reasons

22:48:12 badcfe White_Flame: right, maybe 'popular' languages as measured by frusts in stackoverflow is not the best measure

22:48:40 badcfe and maybe to have an ansi spec should be good enough.

22:48:56 White_Flame having a spec at all is heads and shoulders above many other languages

22:49:11 White_Flame even disregarding standards bodies

22:49:47 badcfe White_Flame: "commercializing teh community" ?

22:49:52 White_Flame and again, good enough for what?

22:50:21 edgar-rft languages are only popular when they are used by the pope

22:50:29 White_Flame sure, running businesses around supporting language dev groups, with websites, instruction, libraries, etc

22:50:36 badcfe good enough for having similar compiler implementations around, for the language to be practical and valuable to know

22:50:57 badcfe edgar-rft: hence pope-ular

22:51:05 Nilby I think the Lisp community and programming communties in general are wise emough not to get stupid semi-political organizations involved in designing languages. And even though Common Lisp is a great achievement, designing by committee isn't so good.

22:51:06 White_Flame well, I think it already met that criteria

22:51:13 jasom badcfe: I mean Python lacks even an ANSI standard, which probably explains why nobody uses it

22:51:54 White_Flame does python not even have a written standard, besides a reference implementation?

22:52:23 phoe not really, AFAIR

22:52:26 badcfe jasom: you proove having standard is not important. okay.

22:52:27 jasom White_Flame: it has reference documentation; whether or not that is sufficient to be called a "standard" is an open question.

22:53:22 Nilby e.g. ECMAscript seem rather pointless and isn't defacto Javascript

22:53:23 jasom White_Flame: anything not mentioned in the reference documentation is de-facto decided by the reference implementation, so if you were to write a novel implementation that conforms to the reference documentation, but differs from the reference implementation, would it be a Python implementation?

22:53:30 White_Flame badcfe: having a standard is beneficial. but most people seem to skip that, as is common with programmers and anything prose :-P

22:54:09 badcfe if you write something in lisp teh thing is generally going to be faster than if you do the thing in python right? even pypy, cython, or whatever

22:54:12 White_Flame (comments, documentation, actually reading up on things, etc)

22:54:32 White_Flame python is generally a slow-to-execute language

22:54:37 badcfe White_Flame: yeah, except .. programming is prose right

22:54:43 White_Flame no

22:54:59 no-defun-allowed There are a few things that are hard to compile in Python, but usually PyPy does pretty well at compiling it.

22:55:00 jasom conversely there was a 6 year period in which there was an ALGOL 68 standard, but no conforming implementations

22:55:33 no-defun-allowed However, I think PyPy uses type information gathered at runtime, but (all?) Common Lisp implementations rely on the programmer to provide type declarations if they need to specialize.

22:55:33 badcfe jasom: you have another good point about standard ther.

22:56:09 srandon111 ** NICK sukablyat

22:56:12 Nilby or programming is functioning poetry ? or incomprehensible scratches ?

22:56:23 jasom no-defun-allowed: sbcl definitely does type-inference based optimizations, particularly around numeric functions

22:56:26 White_Flame it's closer to mathematical representation

22:56:45 White_Flame it's a formal representation, not a human language

22:57:14 no-defun-allowed jasom: Yes, but that is still determined at compile-time. Compare to Smalltalk or Self (or Java even), where code is specialized at runtime.

22:57:57 jasom no-defun-allowed: IIRC There was some experimenting of donig that with method-invocations in sbcl, not sure if it's in the current release or not

22:58:09 edgar-rft Nilby: "programming is like incomprehensible poetry" will become my favourite idiom of the day :-)

22:58:19 Nilby :D

22:58:21 jasom but it was fairly straightforward caching of method lookups, nothing fancy like JIT specialization IIRC

22:58:57 no-defun-allowed Ah yes.

23:07:32 defunkydrummer no-defun-allowed: in many cases PyPy doesn't really do a dramatic speedup, Python still ends up being a slow platform

23:08:16 no-defun-allowed defunkydrummer: I recall a decent speedup on a few programs. Not quite close to Lisp (or C even), but still a large speedup nonetheless.

23:08:28 defunkydrummer no-defun-allowed: only Cython brings real speed to Python, but Cython isn't really 100% python language, and there is no compatibility with the popular libraries

23:09:10 edgar-rft badcfe: The good thing of having a standard is that the language doesn't change every other year. In physics or medicine I have maintainance contracts over ten or twenty years and I wouldn't want to maintain C code over such a long time.

23:09:10 edgar-rft The disadvantage of having a "non-changing" language is that it oftenn needs some work to deal with more modern things like threads or distributed network computing.

23:11:59 badcfe edgar-rft: but i would guess lisp (you mention network) is quite good for a io event loop with protocol handlers doing some kinds of continuations

23:13:27 jasom edgar-rft: I've seen 99 year support contracts based on C; the compiler in question will support the version C it was based upon for that long.

23:13:46 badcfe White_Flame: 'it's a formal representation, not a human language' refers to lisp?

23:15:21 edgar-rft jasom: of course *you* are free to do whatever you want, but maybe *I* wouldn't do the same :-)

23:16:22 edgar-rft jasom: what if your old C compiler doesn't work anymore after an OS update?

23:17:44 jasom edgar-rft: pretty sure the compiler vendor was included in the contract

23:18:47 Nilby Eventually I think Common Lisp will have enough defacto extensions, like unicode, PLN, getenv, run-program, etc. which every implementation already supports, that it'll just be useful write them all up.

23:18:53 jasom plus I have code I wrote that is older than the C ANSI standard that most compilers will still compile with the correct flags.

23:20:47 edgar-rft jasom: I din't mean that it's impossible, I only said that *I* wouldn't want to do it, maybe for just the simple reasom that I'm a complete idiot.

23:22:17 jasom I get your point; I just think C was a poor example given that Python is actually this terrible. I have a build-system that some components won't work with anything newer than 2.3 and other components require 2.7; it's terrible.

23:24:26 edgar-rft I agree that there are things in life that are even more terrible than C :-)

23:24:52 oni-on-ion i like C =)

23:25:10 oni-on-ion but grew up on it; mother tongue.

23:31:37 edgar-rft jasom: Python made Adam and Eve getting banned from paradise.

23:32:12 edgar-rft okay, this definitely going -> #lispcafe :-)

23:39:28 adlai badcfe: there are a few hidden assumptions at play when you try to answer a question like that

0:14:20 oni-on-ion jackdaniel, https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/ ?

0:27:52 badcfe am i wrong in assuming i can become fluent in common lisp, and go ahead and write whatever program in common lisp? someone mentioned it was more of a methematical thingy, not for humans ...

0:28:10 phoe what

0:28:19 jasom badcfe: yes, you can go ahead and write whatever program in common lisp

0:28:20 phoe Lisp is a language for humans

0:28:32 phoe and a pretty nice and useful and interactive one, to add.

0:28:37 oni-on-ion it is much more for humans than most other programming languages, for sure.

0:28:54 oni-on-ion (ironically one of the reasons it is not my #1)

0:28:57 badcfe the restart facility just bothers me, because i dont appretiate its value.

0:29:13 phoe don't use it, then

0:29:34 phoe you might appreciate it e.g. when you end up in the debugger but don't want to kill the lisp process

0:29:51 phoe or when you want to gracefully recover from some error situation without breaking it altogether.

0:30:06 badcfe but it's extremely interesting, and surprising this kind of thing doesnt exist in other langs/envs

0:30:38 phoe they don't find much value in interactive restarting facilities because they usually have no interactivity baked into the language

0:30:41 badcfe i just dont have it in my workflow or something like that

0:30:48 phoe same with programmatic recovery actions.

0:31:16 phoe usually it's "oh shit, we're dead, throw an exception and hope something catches it"

0:31:17 badcfe so it was impossible to inherit this nice restart concept in other langs/envs?

0:31:30 phoe badcfe: it's possible to implement it in other languages as a library

0:31:44 phoe see e.g. https://github.com/phoe-trash/cafe-latte - Java

0:31:52 badcfe can i programatically restart in clisp?

0:32:01 phoe you mean the CLISP implementation?

0:32:11 phoe uh, sure? it implements common lisp, so it has restarts too

0:32:13 badcfe no. i meant common lisp

0:32:18 phoe oh, that's a different thing

0:32:19 phoe yes

0:32:31 phoe you can use functions COMPUTE-RESTARTS and FIND-RESTART to grab a hold of a restart object

0:32:39 badcfe phoe: you refer to gnu with clisp right?

0:32:48 phoe and then use INVOKE-RESTART or INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY to call it

0:32:57 phoe badcfe: yes, I refer to the GNU CLISP implementation when I think "CLISP"

0:33:06 phoe CLISP is not a good acronym for Common Lisp though; CL is better.

0:33:37 badcfe is programatic restart the way to go in c-lisp, as kind of an exception handling, but where the throw-site defines teh action

0:33:56 badcfe i'll use CL to refer to common lisp from now on

0:34:09 phoe I need to run to sleep now

0:34:20 phoe so I can't provide in-depth answers

0:34:46 badcfe don't run to hard .. it might take away potential for good sleep

0:34:46 phoe if you're fine with grabbing a book, I can point you towards "The Common Lisp Condition System" that describes restarts as well as conditions and handlers

0:34:51 phoe :D

0:34:58 phoe ;; warning: the book is by me, so this is a shameless plug

0:35:10 badcfe i saw this link which looked nice https://franz.com/support/documentation/cl-ansi-standard-draft-w-sidebar.pdf

0:35:25 badcfe point me to your book please

0:35:33 phoe https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330

0:35:46 badcfe thank you. and have a good sleep

0:35:48 phoe the standard is OK, but it doesn't tell you about how it's implemented or what are its common use cases

0:35:55 phoe that's where I tried to fill the void.

0:36:00 phoe ACTION waves, goes for the night

0:36:19 badcfe i find that perspective very interesting to me as well.

0:36:32 badcfe ciao

0:43:29 edgar-rft phoe: your answers will be as deep as your sleep :-)

0:44:54 edgar-rft badcfe: the standard link for "Howto Get Started with Common Lisp" -> https://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started

1:21:16 nij I have a common lisp file that is growing, and getting messier. I don't mean to package it, but have a need to separate the codes into different files. What's the next step I should look into? Should I start learning how to use ASD?

1:22:59 no-defun-allowed Usually you have files in packages, then packages in systems. But then you load all the files with an ASDF system.

1:24:23 nij Hm! OK It seems the right time for me to know all these things anyway: a file, a package, a file, and an ASDF system. I know where to look into these :) Thanks!!!

1:27:24 badcfe the set of function in onlisp seems practical to have. is there a package that has this, or only his source which was extracted from the latix and has a copiright notice that makes it feel like i should not fix up the mentioned problems with CTL1 and redefinitions

1:28:24 nij Any hope to deal with common lisp smoothly without using emacs? Just curious as my friend is asking.

1:28:32 badcfe s/function/lisp functions and macros/

1:28:42 no-defun-allowed There's SLIMV for Vim and something for Atom too.

1:29:27 nij Nice. I need to brainwash him to use vim first anyways.

1:31:15 PuercoPop nij: yeah, defining a system sounds like a good idea. You can start with $ echo '(defsystem "foo" :components ((:file "foo")))' > foo.asd

1:50:18 Lord_of_Life_ ** NICK Lord_of_Life

1:58:43 entre-parenteses nlj: If you're planning to brainwash him to use Vim anyways, you could always try to get him hooked on Spacemacs - https://www.spacemacs.org/

1:59:16 entre-parenteses * nij:

2:00:19 entre-parenteses Then you'd get him hooked on Emacs *and* Vim ;D

2:03:03 badcfe is this spacemacs built on emacs and has the elisp inside?

2:03:36 badcfe is there a hello world lisp system containing asd and all, kind of a template project to start with?

2:04:00 badcfe also, i wonder how to kind of "make" the system into an executable.

2:04:23 badcfe found this but its dated so no asdf there .. http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ltkdoc/node51.html

2:04:57 entre-parenteses badcfe: The way I think about it, Spacemacs is a lot of configuration on top of emacs (so, yes, it's elisp).

2:06:04 entre-parenteses I may be wrong but I think ASDF generally comes with many implementations - I know it comes with SBCL, at least.

2:06:49 entre-parenteses To turn systems into executables, I've used roswell before. https://github.com/roswell/roswell

2:07:15 entre-parenteses But I think ASDF can do this, too (although I haven't done it, myself).

2:08:44 Bike man

2:12:52 no-defun-allowed On SBCL, you can run (save-lisp-and-die "program" :executable t :toplevel #'program:main)

2:13:40 solideogloria[m] :compression t for binary compression

2:14:14 curiouscain ASDF can create executables, here's an asd file from a project of mine. Look at the three lines starting at line 6: https://paste.sr.ht/~cain/d39f6b89d2fa733326af86ba67962d031ffbd5b4

2:14:41 badcfe wow in sbcl i did (ql:quickload :ltk) and then (in-package :ltk) and then i can program all these GUI things, nice

2:14:52 curiouscain I think (asdf:make) will trigger it, but I can't remember

2:15:08 badcfe my problem is, if i learn this, then snap! and it becomes unmaintained and unavailable

2:16:07 lotuseater badcfe: then you have a way better chance (and maybe more awesome experience) with McCLIM

2:16:40 badcfe but it will go away again faster than something based on TK i would think

2:17:06 lotuseater ehm no, McCLIM not

2:17:07 no-defun-allowed I don't think Tk is going away soon.

2:17:39 badcfe tk is decent. i dont like flies that snapps hype and then dies

2:17:51 solideogloria[m] I just use cl-cffi-gtk

2:18:12 defunkydrummer no-defun-allowed: tk got a new life lease thanks to Python (TkInter). It is also rather easy to use.

2:18:18 badcfe cffi to gtk sounds like a decent approach

2:18:19 defunkydrummer I like LTK.

2:18:34 defunkydrummer LTK works fine and it's multiplatform

2:18:41 defunkydrummer fine for simple UIs

2:18:42 badcfe i had some fun with tcltk way back

2:18:57 badcfe and also py tkinter yes

2:19:54 badcfe ltk seems good, but should i take last update 2006 as a bad sign. or not

2:20:33 no-defun-allowed Again, Tk isn't going anywhere, so there's no reason for it to be bad.

2:20:38 badcfe maybe bindings to ltk is not problematic, and this package will stay around. i dont even know about this quicklisp ecosystem, im not confident to rely on these things.

2:20:53 lotuseater badcfe: I'm annoying I know https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/

2:21:44 badcfe lotuseater: i must say it seems decent

2:22:00 lotuseater ok

2:22:48 lotuseater can someone explain to me in simple words what an interface manager advances from just doing guis?

2:23:03 badcfe are there some cairo kind of thing for drawing (i am abs newb in the lisp world)

2:23:16 solideogloria[m] there is cairo itself

2:23:22 moon-chilled ** NICK moon-child

2:23:32 badcfe solideogloria[m]: via ffi ?

2:23:38 solideogloria[m] yeah

2:23:45 solideogloria[m] http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial.html

2:23:52 lotuseater badcfe: don't worry, there is so much stuff

2:23:56 solideogloria[m] it has some on the cairo stuff

2:24:27 defunkydrummer badcfe: bad sign, why?

2:24:41 defunkydrummer badcfe: tk hasn't changed and lisp neither

2:25:24 defunkydrummer badcfe: and besides that, it has been maintained on github, I'm certain last commit isn't that old, perhaps 2018

2:25:31 badcfe defunkydrummer: but how can i be confident some module that i get my hands on through this quicklisp today will be available forward

2:26:17 solideogloria[m] depends on the module

2:26:25 badcfe defunkydrummer: maybe with lisp its easier to grab some lisp system and it will work without a bunch of various broken system deps and things

2:26:25 solideogloria[m] tk isn't going to go away because of python

2:26:33 curiouscain Unless it fails to compile or is devoid of features, I think that's not a worry you really need to have

2:27:19 lotuseater badcfe: phew one can really tell that you are a newbie :)

2:27:43 defunkydrummer badcfe: i don't understand your concerns. How is this different to using an external dependency on any other language?

2:27:58 defunkydrummer lotuseater: let's be kind to newbies

2:28:13 lotuseater defunkydrummer: it was meant very kind!

2:28:42 badcfe wow, that cl-cffi-gtk has WAY more contents and deps than the ltk

2:29:14 solideogloria[m] well it is gtk at the end of the day which is huge of itself

2:29:22 solideogloria[m] * well it is gtk at the end of the day which is huge

2:31:50 badcfe (defcstruct g-object-class ... wow this is advanced stuff

2:32:15 solideogloria[m] glib stuff

2:32:20 badcfe really wrapping gtk decently. and it has some bordeaux threads thing inside there?

2:33:17 solideogloria[m] glib has its own threading stuff iirc

2:33:53 badcfe so i'm guessing lisp structures are used as builders of the gobjects and structures in the gui event loop here, and on callbacks there are lisp accessors to the gui engine things

2:34:27 solideogloria[m] to gtk libraries, yes

2:34:38 solideogloria[m] it's cffi

2:34:41 badcfe so lisp is kind of arm-waving at, and getting shadows from, the gui engine including those gobjects and all

2:34:53 solideogloria[m] kind of, yes

2:34:58 badcfe facinating. i am positively surprised.

2:35:22 badcfe this could be a motivator to play a little more with lisp here. have fun

2:35:47 lotuseater you have this with CFFI in general :)

2:36:04 badcfe s/have fun/to have fun exploring this and building some neat thing as a side effect/

2:36:36 solideogloria[m] yeah, its the same thing for libaries using CFFI

2:37:01 badcfe is there some hello world around? kind of a template project i could start with?

2:37:04 solideogloria[m] interfacing with the C libraries with lisp and giving bindings for their respective stuff in C

2:37:15 solideogloria[m] <badcfe "is there some hello world around"> http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial.html#GTK+_and_Cairo

2:37:18 solideogloria[m] > <@freenode_badcfe:matrix.org> is there some hello world around? kind of a template project i could start with?

2:37:18 solideogloria[m] * http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial.html

2:37:21 solideogloria[m] its all in here

2:37:30 badcfe (i still wonder if its common to build an executable in lisp, i now use sbcl)

2:37:48 solideogloria[m] you build an executable only when you release

2:37:57 solideogloria[m] till the, you test with the repl itself

2:38:01 solideogloria[m] * till then, you test with the repl itself

2:38:24 lotuseater there is also this about CFFI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5CnYlG7sc8

2:38:25 solideogloria[m] Example 1.2 btw badcfe

2:39:14 solideogloria[m] ACTION sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/GDMtYnwTMhYxdFktBecuLjYC/message.txt >

2:39:23 solideogloria[m] just substitute asdf:load-system with ql:quickload

2:43:09 badcfe debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR in thread

2:43:09 badcfe #<THREAD "cl-cffi-gtk main thread" RUNNING {1007237E83}>:

2:43:09 badcfe invalid number of arguments: 2

2:44:00 solideogloria[m] are you using SLIME ?

2:44:09 badcfe hmm. i tried the A simple application. example, and (in-package :gtk) and tehn (simple-application)

2:44:37 solideogloria[m] :gtk-tutorial, :gtk is already another package

2:46:30 solideogloria[m] if you are using slime, you have to do something different

2:46:31 badcfe okay i got that window up. good

2:46:50 solideogloria[m] nice to hear :)

2:47:24 solideogloria[m] I remember that I had to do something to get it working on SLIME, can't recall what exactly

2:47:34 solideogloria[m] when I used to use SLIME

2:47:54 badcfe but when i try to run that gtk_class_gtk-application i get above err, and seems to have some thread due to what i observe in my job control there

2:48:15 badcfe i use rlwrap sbcl

2:48:33 badcfe 8 - /

2:48:36 defunkydrummer badcfe: no, it's not common

2:49:37 solideogloria[m] <badcfe "but when i try to run that gtk_c"> gtk_class_gtk-application from the tutorial ?

2:50:20 badcfe http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-cffi-gtk/pages/gtk_class_gtk-application.html

2:54:08 PuercoPop badcfe: for a template there is https://github.com/xach/quickproject or https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-project

2:59:51 solideogloria[m] its (g-application-run app argc argv) I think

3:00:26 solideogloria[m] it needs an argc

3:36:22 ldbeth good morning

3:36:32 no-defun-allowed Hello ldbeth.

3:46:47 ldbeth can I use #'eq hash table if keys are assumed to be fixnum?

3:47:02 no-defun-allowed You want #'eql for fixnums.

3:49:19 ldbeth ok, so is there a way to utilize the result of #'sxhash to make hash tables with custom hash function?

3:50:28 ldbeth say if i want a list of character as keys, and the order doesn't matter

3:51:38 devon Define gethash* to sxhash the key.

3:52:06 Bike there's no standard way to do that. sbcl has an extension for it. dunno about other implementations.

3:53:51 ldbeth ACTION uses CCL

3:55:26 no-defun-allowed I think you can provide a custom :test and :hash-function on Clozure.

3:55:48 ldbeth no-defun-allowed: thank you for the info

3:55:57 no-defun-allowed eg (make-hash-table :test '= :hash-function 'round)

4:00:13 ldbeth no-defun-allowed: but how do you know with kind of tests are avaliable?

4:00:29 no-defun-allowed I think you can pass any predicate function.

4:01:30 no-defun-allowed However, I recall custom hash tables being much slower on SBCL than standard hash tables; which is a pity, because otherwise I could do (make-hash-table :test 'string= :hash-function 'djb2)

4:02:08 ldbeth ah, i see, only the #'eql #'eq etc can be passed as argument as in CL standard, others should be passed as 'char= 'string= etc

4:04:24 beach Good morning everyone!

4:04:34 ldbeth beach: heloo

4:11:11 no-defun-allowed Yes, only those test functions are allowed by the Common Lisp standard.

4:14:08 no-defun-allowed But SICL hash tables and Luckless permit any hash and test functions, and are basically drop-in replacements for Common Lisp hash tables. (Except that hash functions based on the address of an object will not work in either, if your implementation moves objects.)

4:25:14 ldbeth no-defun-allowed: at least sxhash should be guaranteed to work

4:38:02 easye Mornin' #lisp. Time to make CONS.

4:38:58 beach Hello easye.

4:39:12 beach How are your projects going?

4:46:08 easye beach: I just joined RavenPack, so right now most of my energy is going into learning the code base.

4:46:21 beach Oh, nice! Did you move?

4:46:27 easye I will try to get an abcl-1.8.1 out over the holidays.

4:46:57 beach Great!

4:47:00 easye I am working with phoe to get ELS 2021 airborne, hopefully to get the CFP out before the holidays.

4:47:22 easye So, a lot of stuff.

4:47:26 beach Yes, I see.

4:48:00 easye Moving isn't possible at the moment. I will evaluate things when the pandemic starts to tamper off, which probably won't be until late 2021.

4:48:13 beach OK.

4:48:49 easye But I think living in dense urban cities isn't necessarily my thing anymore, so Southern Spain sounds quite attractive at this point.

4:49:17 beach Yeah, I wouldn't mind living there at all.

4:49:18 easye "Cites are so 20th century" and all that.

4:49:25 beach I agree, yes.

4:49:32 saganman Morning beach

4:49:38 beach easye: Where do you live now?

4:49:58 easye Really, if I had to pick a beach, I would move in your neck of the woods, to around an hour north of Biaritz.

4:50:05 easye ACTION lives in Vienna, Austria.

4:50:51 beach Yes, our region is pretty nice actually.

4:51:28 easye French food, and the sheer amount of great stuff y'all have in your hypermarks is magnitudes better than what is available in Austria.

4:51:44 easye And it has gotten much better over the last couple decades here.

4:51:54 easye s/hypermarks/hypermarts/

4:52:15 beach Hmm, yes, I see.

4:53:18 easye And groceries in France are considerably cheaper than in Austria. When I have been shopping in France, a full basket of great stuff rarely breaks 100EUR. In Austria, the same stuff at less quality would easily break 300 EUR.

4:53:46 beach Wow, quite a big difference.

4:54:06 easye Yeah, I was very surprised that there is such a differential in the EU.

4:54:39 easye And how are your projects going, beach?

4:54:47 beach Very well thank you.

4:55:11 beach I just finished version 3 of the SICL bootstrapping procedure.

4:55:25 beach Too bad it had to take three trials to get it right.

4:55:39 easye Third time's the charm.

4:55:40 beach But that's life. Nobody has done this before, so I had to learn by doing.

4:55:56 jeosol Good morning all!

4:56:03 beach Hello jeosol.

4:56:08 easye Mornin' jeosol

4:56:12 jeosol beach: congrats on that

4:56:18 beach Thanks.

4:56:22 jeosol easye, beach: hello

4:56:43 beach There is still a lot of work left. How much is hard to say.

5:00:01 jeosol beach: going through my CL archives, I came across a document you author, in 2000 or compiled by Loic Lacomme: "Symbolic programming using Common Lisp"

5:01:00 jeosol it does contain good points when I was trying to justify CL for choice of a project back then - I no longer do this anyway, following advice here and elsewhere

5:02:39 jeosol beach: the bootstrapping procedure, version 3, that's also probably in the spirit of iterative CL development

5:12:13 beach I can't remember having written that document, but I am not surprised either.

5:12:42 jeosol I think the person mentioned compiled it from notes, it seems but attributed the content to you

5:12:53 beach jeosol: In this case, it is just that I was unable to predict the negative consequences of the choices I made for versions 1 and 2.

5:13:03 beach Oh, I see.

5:13:22 jeosol I see. So v1 and v2 are different from v3

5:13:42 beach Similar in spirit, but different in the details.

5:14:07 beach To the untrained eye, they look the same.

5:14:57 jeosol I recently did some refactoring also using "layering" of problems and macros to automatically generate functions - always good feeling afterwards

5:16:40 jeosol beach: oh ok. I saw a thread on reddit about parallel gc's or something a few of the lispers chiming in. Did you see it?

5:17:09 jeosol Is parallel GC something you are looking into? FYI, I am not a compiler guy - not an expert in that space

5:17:10 beach I don't think I did.

5:17:26 easye <https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/kd816x/excerpts_from_the_pro_mailing_list_on_common_lisp/>

5:17:41 beach Yes, the GC I designed for SICL is parallel and concurrent, but it hasn't been tested in real life yet.

5:17:42 jeosol thanks easye, that's the link

5:17:42 easye As I just commented, ABCL has parallel GC with the right JVM implementation.

5:17:57 beach Oh, yes, I get the Pro mailing list.

5:19:10 beach I need to vanish for a while. Busy morning today, with tasks unrelated to Common Lisp.

5:19:22 easye l8r beach

5:19:23 jeosol ok, we'll be here.

5:20:35 jeosol easye: what are you working on these days?

5:20:58 easye At the moment, commercial work with my new position at RavenPack.

5:21:12 easye But I plan to get an abcl-1.8.1 out over the holidays.

5:21:54 jeosol That's nice. You just got the role?

5:22:26 easye no-defun-allowed managed to get ABCL working with the Project Loom green threads <https://twitter.com/nodefunallowed/status/1337560381930098690> which I would like to add.

5:22:44 easye jeosol: Yes, I joined RavenPack at the beginning of December.

5:23:24 jeosol Sweet. Congrats. Is this the company based in Spain? I forget

5:23:47 easye RavenPack has a mature CL codebase with lots of stuff to learn.

5:24:46 easye Yes, RavenPack is based in Spain. We do "sentiment analysis" of data, providing structured feeds of unstructured data.

5:25:33 easye The bread and butter at the moment is providing machine-readable "signals" for financial news, but we are actively expanding into general analysis of textual data.

5:26:47 lotuseater sounds nice

5:27:47 easye It is very nice, indeed, especially after a long drought of commerical work for me personally. To be doing it in our favorite CONS makes it extra so.

5:29:19 easye And the people at RavenPack are top-notch to boot.

5:30:06 lotuseater oh that's a big plus. money isn't everything

5:32:55 lotuseater so you combine also data science and natural language processing (in text form)

5:34:21 jeosol easye: favorite cons haha. very nice

5:34:27 easye Exactly, and we are starting to incorporate Machine Learning for the buzzword trifecta.

5:34:49 jeosol Are you guys using python for some of the ML work or it's all CL

5:34:59 lotuseater oh that buzzword is new to me

5:35:14 easye Yes, we are using Python for Machine Learning (Tensorflow).

5:35:23 jeosol lotuseater: which? trifecta?

5:35:57 jeosol easye: I see, I once looked at Gabor Melis's code and I realized he integrated with python do some of the ML work.

5:36:04 lotuseater i worked a while for a data science company where mostly python is used, the libs are very mature :)

5:36:05 easye And we actually use Java to massage the input sources into our classifiers.

5:36:18 lotuseater jeosol: yes trifecta

5:36:20 jeosol lotuseater: true about the MLs.

5:36:43 jeosol lotuseater: generally meaning three-pronged, three things, etc

5:37:33 lotuseater yes and also pandas is cool for example. but back then (2018) i just was new to functional programming and far away from CL

5:37:43 lotuseater ah okay

5:37:57 jeosol easye: regarding your commercial statement, I seem to recall that some defense companies (US side) are using allegro works, I was in a few of their talks on Ontology and knowledge graphs

5:38:53 jeosol lotuseater: pandas is nice. I recall someone (i forgot who) was developing a similar dataframe-based library in CL and has some applications

5:39:29 easye RavenPack is an Allegro shop. Our semantic taxonomies are mostly home-grown, mainly for efficiency/speed.

5:40:30 easye I did a lot of semantic web research in a former life, and really like processing things with RDF, so will bring that perspective, slowly, into focus.

5:41:20 lotuseater allegro shop?

5:41:42 easye RavenPack uses Allegro Common Lisp exclusively.

5:42:15 lotuseater ah ok, was too obvious so i asked :D

5:43:02 lotuseater i never tried on one of the commercial implementations

5:43:34 easye This is my second job using commercial implementations, the previous one was using LispWorks.

5:43:35 jeosol I see, there's a statement by RavenPack's Jason Cornez on Franz's site

5:44:13 easye If you have the money, and you have a job to get done, it is nice having commericial support.

5:44:20 lotuseater i would give everything even landing one

5:44:37 jeosol I recall the talks by Jans talked about their rdfs

5:45:22 jeosol easye: so you'd recommend Allegro. I hear it's slower compared to SBCL, I haven't done a test.

5:45:45 jeosol I only used it briefly many years when starting out and figuring which compiler to start using

5:46:02 easye I wouldn't recommend anything without knowing the context (how much money do you want to spend? What are your developers used to? etc.)

5:46:23 jeosol what about their single digit revenue "clause". I thought there was something like that. May be different now.

5:46:43 easye SBCL is a fine implementation. GOOG uses it for the air flight search application they acquired from ITA.

5:46:56 jeosol easye: Fair point. What I meant about recommended is all within CL sphere, and in relation to LispWorks

5:47:19 easye jeosol: Franz is definitely the ORCL of Common Lisp implementations in terms of cost and licensing, but their support is nicer.

5:47:20 jeosol SBCL is what I have used primarily all through

5:47:35 jeosol easye: Thanks for that. It's good to know

5:48:01 jeosol My contact then stressed the support part.

5:48:20 easye Anyways, nice chatting. I'm gonna start my "commute" to work now.

5:48:33 jeosol Safe trip. Have a nice day

5:48:48 easye Already there--it's more of mental thing. Take care.

5:48:57 jeosol hahaha, ok

5:57:05 no-defun-allowed easye: Hey, sorry for the delay, I was gardening, but using Loom is not backwards compatible with OS threads.

5:57:21 no-defun-allowed Or, more specifically, you have the same methods to spawn OS threads, then you have another method to spawn a green thread.

5:58:28 no-defun-allowed The change I made was to put `javaThread = Thread.startVirtualThread(r);` in the constructor for LispThread(Function, LispObject) instead of the other stuff to make a Java thread.

5:59:44 easye no-defun-allowed: cool. Would you recommend that as the way to spawn all threads when running on Loom then?

6:00:00 no-defun-allowed I don't see why not, currently.

6:00:04 easye Gardening is a nice alternative.

6:00:19 easye no-defun-allowed: Thanks. I'll get to that soon, then.

6:01:02 no-defun-allowed But again, it's not backwards compatible with older Java, and Loom is based off a test of JDK 16, so it's not even compatible with anything stable.

6:01:35 easye Detecting the presence of the Thread.startVirtualThread() method should be sufficient.

6:02:29 easye Do you know if Loom openjdk16 EAs are multi-platform? (I assume you are running Linux)

6:04:00 easye <https://github.com/AdoptOpenJDK/openjdk16-binaries/releases/tag/jdk-2020-12-10-20-02> looks pretty multi-platform.

6:11:50 no-defun-allowed I suppose so then.

6:22:59 no-defun-allowed easye: I still wish there was an incremental and/or concurrent _and_ generational GC on Java. The first generational collector (to my knowledge, the Liebermann-Hewitt collector) was an extension of an incremental collector (Baker copying), so this feels like a bit of a step back.

6:24:44 easye I thought GC1 was concurrent and generational, but without realtime guarantees. But I trust you have looked at the current state of JVM GCs a lot harder than I have in recent years.

6:25:29 no-defun-allowed G1GC? I thought it stopped the world, at least for major GCs when not apparently in a failure mode.

6:26:24 no-defun-allowed No, it is concurrent, but I always got pauses when...using it with large heaps with...soft-realtime stuff.

6:26:38 easye <https://blog.idrsolutions.com/2017/05/g1gc-java-9-garbage-collector-explained-5-minutes/> sez: G1, however, will only “stop-the-world” during a full garbage collection. In addition to this, it also offers a variety of tuning options so that full collections can be avoided outright.

6:26:54 easye But again, my knowledge of GCs on the JVM is pretty superficial.

6:27:57 easye And my knowledge of the taxonomy of garbage collection algorithms is even lighter.

6:28:49 no-defun-allowed I see. I think I got a major GC every few minutes, which was no fun to play on-- er, I mean no good for my...latency-sensitive application.

6:29:17 easye Minecraft is a perfectly good application, training the next generation of Lispers...

6:29:40 easye If it works for Minecraft, it oughta work for HFT

6:30:16 no-defun-allowed You got me. But a decent Minecraft modpack demands a large heap, and thus a clever GC. From what I heard, recent Minecraft conses up a lot of useless stuff like point objects, so the generational hypothesis would hold.

6:32:09 adlai easye: to what extent does your employer have access to the signals and classifications?

6:33:02 adlai one pervasive idiocy in finance is that you should sell signals, instead of trading on them yourself, then your signals are worth whatever your the willing sucker pays the happy seller

6:33:13 no-defun-allowed But my observation could have been due to swapping as well; as I mentioned a few days ago, I got more memory around the same time I got into JVM occultism. And I read that G1 only stops the world when it's completely out of memory.

6:34:15 adlai my question could be rephrased as "Does RavenPack sell its customers the actual signals, or a tool for building their own signal classifier and alert system"

6:35:36 easye There is nothing trivial with games, their playing, or their optimization. Conway was a famous gamer. And according to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computability_logic> all computer programs are isomorphic to a two-player static agmes.

6:36:18 adlai ACTION incidentally is from the polar opposite finance dogmas, where the only possible good use of human-generated text is for consumption by humans, and anything automating human judgement is automatically suspect

6:36:31 no-defun-allowed I had read a lot of the Handbook, but all the cool Java collectors do some clever analysis that I could describe as "they do the marking and count up the marks in regions, then lazily sweep the most unmarked regions", which I don't recall.

6:36:34 easye adlai: RavenPack buys feeds like DowJones, and sells our own feeds enriched with semantics for the signals.

6:37:29 easye That transformation is mostly proprietary, mainly because our customers have been interesting it things working well/fast rather than how they work.

6:37:56 easye err "have been interested in"

6:38:18 adlai it's also simpler to build and develop things that way

6:39:03 easye We sell tools for enriching the signals to some extent primarily an online Juptyer-like notebook.

6:39:44 easye But I have only been at the company for a couple weeks now, and am engaged primarily as a CL hacker, so my statements may not entirely accurate.

6:40:05 no-defun-allowed So what can I say, that's kinda neat. And they use mark information to decide what needs to be compacted, but moving regions and not large amounts of a heap sounds tedious.

6:42:00 easye no-defun-allowed: What is the "Handbook" you refer to?

6:42:10 no-defun-allowed It may be too much to hope for, but I would hope for another edition of the Handbook that covers these collectors in depth.

6:42:30 no-defun-allowed easye: The Garbage Collection Handbook by Jones, Hosking and Moss

6:42:49 easye ACTION puts that on his reading list.

6:44:51 adlai so RavenPack itself never touches any of the exchanges? I guess it is still possible to simulate a signal's effects, for reinforcement.

6:45:34 easye adlai: "touching the exchanges" not as far as I know. We certainly don't have realtime/historical equity prices.

6:46:06 no-defun-allowed beach told me that it is not the clearest to read at times, and I have to agree sadly. But it is still very useful to read.

6:48:57 adlai easye: I'd expect that the market feed is an important factor for distinguishing noise about an event (where various [anti-]correlations in the time series reduce towards absolute zero), from noise about noise (where [anti-]correlations increase away from absolute zero, and you'd detect human amplification of e.g. a surprising quarterly report)

6:49:58 adlai although I am probably "teaching to the choir", here, and should go study something myself

6:53:07 easye Well, we are just transmitting the structure of events related to companies; e.g. "Oracle just poached so-and-so as SVP of marketing from Salesforce". What these events have to pricing doesn't really factor into such knowledge. The companies which use our feeds add that sort of information.

6:54:26 adlai ACTION finds the company's pandemic dashboard... that is probably a good free demo of what your paying customers get, for other contexts

6:54:29 easye If we added pricing information to our decision, that would presuppose a pricing model.

6:54:42 easye Yeah, the pandemic dashboard is a good public facing example.

6:55:14 easye But it is an interesting line to pursue about correlations.

6:55:49 adlai hmm, you could call yourselves a quality-pass filter between the data science garbage pipelines; although somehow "big data" is a more popular meme than "gigo" these days :(

6:58:51 easye ACTION just calls himself "employed" at this point.

6:59:44 adlai I think your employer's big group photo is a good site design choice, as a background to the executive mugshots...

7:00:34 adlai when I see an "About Us" page that only lists half a dozen names, my own internal automated sentiment processor starts giving false positives along the lines of "wow, a statistically significant percentage of these people must have a passing familiarity with common lisp"

7:01:19 adlai then I see the photo that enables estimating the denomenator more accurately, and laugh

7:03:05 adlai ACTION wonders whether the dashboard website is also built by a CL program?

7:03:20 easye No the website is Python (Flask I believe).

7:04:02 adlai ahh. I was gonna say, it has all the other dynamic sites that I've encountered lately completely beaten as far as working reasonably on an overworked computer

7:04:55 easye I don't think having an entire company knowing the technology intimately is a reasonable standard. I doubt the majority of Intel knows much about chip design, lets say.

7:05:07 adlai believe it or not, there are actually sketchy cryptocurrency bucket shops that put sentiment feeds into the same one webpage of their site that the traders use for charting and commands

7:05:59 easye Cryptocurrency is definitely the Wild West. I had been ranging on it for the past half-decade before joining RavenPack.

7:07:08 adlai there is not really anything to join. there are various companies although the well-managed ones are almost invariably providing services that have existed in the digital finance world for half a century, maybe more. (e.g., the kind of service your employer offers)

7:08:48 easye The "social movement" aspect of crypto is more interesting, reminding me of the pre-commercial Internet.

7:08:49 adlai it has been quite interesting to see how the folks who make a name for themselves doing manually, what RavenPack does programmatically, end up moving in one of two directions once they have attracted their audience

7:10:24 adlai ACTION exceeds #lisp topic by three sigma, issues ACTION to correct error

7:10:42 easye ACTION goes back to keep on being employed.

7:17:25 adlai let's go back to talking about garbage collection for reclamation, as opposed to filtering for noise... no-defun-allowed, I can never figure out if you are referring to "ANSI Standard Minecraft", your own client implementation, some de-facto standardized upstream client, etc

7:18:05 no-defun-allowed X3J13 ANSI Common Minecraft

7:18:31 adlai no-defun-allowed: I tripped up reading your previous message that "recent Minecraft... conses up a lot of point objects"

7:19:13 no-defun-allowed Yes, I heard that Minecraft conses a lot of short-lived objects from the OptiFine developer, who was very pissy about it, and somehow didn't sound familiar with GCs at all despite what they make.

7:19:31 easye no-defun-allowed's work on Minecraft <https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/minecraft-hacks/abcl-minecraft>

7:19:58 adlai ACTION wonders whether there's already a name existing for the subalgorithm of hash-consing, in the context of ... for lack of a more general context, flat euclidean space.

7:20:11 no-defun-allowed They said that you have to scan all the dead objects, which no sane GC does these days.

7:21:09 adlai so a CL minecraft client could have points use a metaclass, where allocate-instance reuses the hash-consed point objects, and behind the scenes are a handful of multidimensional bit arrays

7:22:53 adlai ... this kind of hash-point-consing, as opposed to the algorithms where you cons up points and shapes explicitly, and then end up having to maintain heaps of them, sorted by various geometrical constraints

7:24:19 no-defun-allowed That could be doable.

7:24:56 adlai my guess is that most who are "familiar with GCs" are familiar with them in a manner similar to the guy who drives the truck, rather than the one who troubleshoots the compactor after it stops crushing

7:27:32 adlai I guess my thinking of this as related to hash-consing might be a false positive, too; because, "hash" is almost certainly the wrong metaphor in contexts where the sparse data behaves contiguously

7:36:16 adlai easye: that photo probably contains ... i dunno, strictly within (3,27) common lisp programmers; although, my semantic operational conclusion is that the bus factor evidenced by that photo is "only one backpack was important enough to not be out of sight for one second, ever?"

7:39:13 flip214 which photo?

7:51:34 adlai flip214: the big background image of view-source:https://www.ravenpack.com/about/ where you see dozens of people doing something outdoorsy, rather than mugshots of executives

7:54:28 adlai easye: hmmm, there is still a bit of GIGO: localizing the pandemic dashboard causes display of headlines from the english-language sites of local newspapers, and the local newspapers are garbage :)

7:55:50 adlai e.g., it appears that haaretz.com double-published an article with a mistake in one copy's headline; and both links appear in the dashboard.

7:58:02 adlai I guess it is a problematic error to expect that such a service would catch.