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13:33:05
beach
drakonis: So I think you would need to gather representatives from the commercial Lisp vendors, from the maintainers of FLOSS Common Lisp implementations, from major users like Google, SISCOG, Ravenpack, etc., and to either convince them to spend a lot of their time for free, or find the money to pay them (or their employers) for their effort.
13:35:00
beach
If the revision is just in the spirit of WSCL, the effort might not be that great, but if you want to add new functionality, like environments, this is going to take much more time.
13:41:22
Shinmera
you not only need to pay them money, you need to do something much harder: convince them it's a good idea :)
13:42:16
jackdaniel
I'm sure some of them will be already convinced that giving them money is a good idea ,)
14:18:24
Shinmera
In other news, I've been working on a system that can generate quicklisp dists. As part of that, it also allows parsing out the information in quicklisp-projects, and thus recreating your own copy of the official quicklisp dist.
14:18:41
Shinmera
One issue is that a number of project source links have since died and are no longer accessible :(
14:34:30
aeth
hexology: speaking of which, in case anyone didn't hear the news, Gitlab was planning on getting rid of free-tier repositories that were "inactive" for over a year, which almost seems maliciously targeted at Lispers given how many of them just throw together a random misc package that's more or less complete
14:35:29
aeth
Still making me reconsider gitlab.com hosting. Only one of my current repositories is "active" under Gitlab's criteria even though that one in particular depends on several others.
14:35:43
hexology
Shinmera: i've been impressed at how many "complete" packages you seem to have floating around
14:36:14
hexology
aeth: indeed, it's a shame because lisp programmers seem to have embraced gitlab as the go-to "not github" option. i guess gitlab-the-company is finding that free tier is not winning them the kinds of customers and revenue streams that they need.
14:36:16
aeth
(And, no, I won't use Github. I don't like "social coding" (i.e. issue tracker drama over nonsense; the barrier to entry is a feature, not a bug) and my hatred for Microsoft software knows no limits.)
14:36:29
hexology
personally i pay for sourcehut but not everyone wants to or is able to pay for git hosting for their little projects
14:36:55
hexology
who runs common-lisp.net? i'd be happy to put down some money every month to support community git hosting under common-lisp.net/dev
14:38:03
hexology
i don't have the same ire for github as you aeth but monoculture always makes me nervous. again, i think this is something that lisp programmers appreciate more than others.
14:38:24
aeth
Isn't common-lisp.net self-hosted gitlab? It should experience similar issues to gitlab.com, i.e. "our stock is being punished so we need to stop being nice and start maximizing profit"
14:38:49
aeth
although maybe someone will maintain a fork of the massive spaghetti mess that is the open source gitlab distribution
14:39:34
hexology
maybe they could relicense a la mongodb but actually obstructing self-hosting seems like brand suicide for sure
14:40:04
aeth
they're a VC-funded, now IPOed, company that just switched from the "give away everything for free to maximize users and mindshare" mode to the "ruthlessly extract profit" mode, as they all do eventually (if they don't just outright shutdown after an acqui-hire)
14:40:21
aeth
which is unfortunately making me have to think about alternatives to code hosting instead of coding
14:40:56
hexology
fwiw i never actually liked gitlab, i thought it was a clunky and slow imitation of github, like the worst of github and bitbucket with the main advantage being "it's not github"
14:41:04
drakonis
an especially egregious example is patreon, which has an inherently sustainable business model
14:41:17
aeth
plus, if Gitlab does ruin itself, Github absolutely will ruin itself too, because "I'm going to switch to Gitlab" is pretty much the only thing keeping Github in check when it makes bad decisions
14:41:25
hexology
right, vc money turns sustainable businesses and turns them into unsustainable rent-extraction devices
14:41:45
hexology
aeth: i doubt it, github at this point i think is doing what all MS products do and becoming an enterprise staple
14:42:22
aeth
hexology: I mean, just look at what happened to Internet Explorer after Netscape failed, or, rather, what didn't happen to Internet Explorer after Netscape failed (Microsoft let it stagnate on IE6 because they could)
14:43:08
hexology
sorry :) i actually think it's important to be somewhat forward-looking about community sustainability and avoiding a massive wave of link rot
14:43:45
aeth
It is a bit of a crisis that the #2 hoster just said "if you don't use a language where you constantly have to patch finished libraries every year to keep those libraries running, your project is 'inactive'"
14:45:01
Shinmera
Anyway, the Redist system is here in case anyone wants to start hosting their own dist or something. https://github.com/Shirakumo/redist
14:45:20
Shinmera
I'm still working out some minor kinks and need to update some docstrings, but it's pretty much done.
14:47:16
shinohai[m]
https://github.com/Shirakumo/redist << hey this is pretty neat actually Shinmera
14:48:15
Shinmera
Sure. I'd like to do more in the testing department, that bit's undercooked. The idea is that hopefully it'll allow someone else to take over the main quicklisp dist with minimal pains, in case anything ever happens to Xach.
14:48:36
Shinmera
And in the interim, of course allow people to create their own custom dists for whatever purposes.
15:35:56
NotThatRPG
hexology: You should be able to host your projects on cl.net's GitLab -- I forget the actual means to do this, but it's on (or near) their home page
15:38:26
morganw
If the cost was legitimately a problem I think sourcehut are open to giving financial help: https://sourcehut.org/pricing/
15:40:06
NotThatRPG
Shinmera: Looking at redist, I'm wondering why you scan the ASDF files instead of loading them. You might miss some dependencies that way. Hm.... The obvious technique would be to load up an ASDF system definition in a subsidiary Lisp, but CL invoking a new image is really hard because CL doesn't have any equivalent to `sys.executable` in python
15:43:37
NotThatRPG
Shinmera: There are some things that `defsystem-depends-on` still does not handle. As I said, the best thing would be to fire up a new lisp process, load the system in there, and interrogate that lisp process. But that's not possible in portable CL. :-(
15:44:28
NotThatRPG
I guess that's non-trivial, because you would also need to know what, if any, core is loaded
15:44:40
Shinmera
Anyway, not sure what you mean by "things that defsystem-depends-on does not handle".
15:45:31
NotThatRPG
Some ASDF extensions have issues because by the time they are loaded, ASDF can fail to parse the defsystem containing them (because that defsystem contains extensions that must be loaded prior to parsing)
15:47:19
NotThatRPG
Anyway, it would be great if CL offered a way to open up a new lisp process with the same characteristics as the invoking process.
15:48:29
NotThatRPG
oh, yes, we can fork, but you can't do the trivial python thing of using `sys.executable` to find what to fork.
15:49:48
NotThatRPG
Fare tried to do this in a library for testing, but it's quite cumbersome, and it relies on populating a lot of environment variables. I wonder if we could enhance UIOP/launch-process to make this easier...?
15:51:40
NotThatRPG
White_Flame: Yes, that's why UIOP would be a good place for this. UIOP could probably also give a portable "loaded core," but that might be a little unpleasant to manage. Just a lot of drudgery to cover all of the implementations.
15:54:00
NotThatRPG
OK then.... I should add a GL issue for this. But first I need to get on my bicycle and head downtown...
16:01:14
Shinmera
But also, I actually *can't* simply load the ASD in another process and read out the deps. That would *miss* dependencies that are feature-test-excluded.
16:49:46
Shinmera
Comparing with the quicklisp systems.txt that lists dependencies the differences seem to be down to: quicklisp including asdf as a dependency on a lot of systems? even if that system does not list the dependency explicitly. quicklisp including dependencies that seem transitive, but only on some systems and not others. and quicklisp missing a bunch of dependencies that are under feature flags.
16:50:50
Shinmera
The diff is a pain in the ass to look at as a consequence, but so far I have not spotted an occurrence where my system misses a dependency.
17:19:18
Shinmera
Okey, I now also deal correctly with folks that do asdf:load-system (or any variant thereof) in their .asds.
18:23:58
NotThatRPG
Shinmera: I haven't had time to check, but I do think there are still places where defsystem-depends-on does not work.
18:27:26
NotThatRPG
I don't think it's necessarily a "boo" to the people still hand-loading dependencies.
18:35:39
pjb
NotThatRPG: (uiop:raw-command-line-arguments) #| --> ("/usr/local/src/ccl/dx86cl64") |#
18:36:23
pjb
NotThatRPG: so the executable path would be: (first (uiop:raw-command-line-arguments)) #| --> "/usr/local/src/ccl/dx86cl64" |#
18:36:59
pjb
NotThatRPG: you'd have to know the options of each CL executable and how it finds the image, either from arguments or by default.