libera/#commonlisp - IRC Chatlog
Search
5:41:15
smokeink
slime's background evaluation thread peeks at (in-package :package-name) in the source file, and then sets *package* accordingly, before evaling the sourcecode (if I'm not mistaken)
5:42:19
smokeink
pjb : I need help writing that reader macro for #\: https://paste.ofcode.org/sMLY3Awg6pPKtJhrBCRLzT
5:43:40
no-defun-allowed
From memory, the symbol reading stuff is called when there is no macro character to use, so that makes sense, though it doesn't help.
5:47:45
smokeink
I want a macro character that'll allow me to read : as a symbol, and will not break pkg:symbols or :symbols
5:47:53
loke
Apparently it was removed (there is a note about that in CLHS). I must have seen it in the ClTL2 book.
5:54:56
loke
Oh wait. there is more information here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss216_w.htm
6:07:59
harovali
smokeink: no, I'm trying to render a unicode enabled truetype font in making a pdf document with cl-pdf and cl-typesetting
6:12:16
no-defun-allowed
harovali: Those would look like the AFM files in https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-pdf/tree/master/afm
6:14:28
pjb
smokeink: if you want to deal with (foo:) -> (foo:||) then you also need to add reader macro on all consituent characters, and parse foo too.
6:17:35
pjb
smokeink: you could change the test for next-char to something like: (or (find …) (not (nth-value 1 (get-macro-character next-char)))) for more generality, I guess.
6:19:14
pjb
or rather: (multiple-value-bind (rm nt) (get-macro-character next-char) (and rm (not nt)))
8:02:20
galdor
Xach: I was not even aware they were in quicklisp, I have not use them for so many years I do not even remember what they were for
8:03:39
galdor
by all means remove them, I'm pretty sure I never submitted them for inclusion, and I'm not even sure I still have the code
11:22:57
atgreen
asdf question... I am using a one-package-per-file style, and have packages user and db - but they have a circular dependency (they want to call functions exported by each other), and asdf doesn't like this. What's the best way to address this?
11:28:03
Shinmera
two choices: 1) don't use oppf, 2) factor out the circular deps into a third package both depend on.
11:28:24
galdor
there are similar issues in every language, excessive compartmentalization does not help
11:31:22
pjb
Put in package.lisp: (defpackage "A" (:use "CL") (:export "FA")) (defpackage "B" (:use "CL" "A") (:export "FB")) (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (use-package "B" "A"))
11:32:21
pjb
and yes, you should avoid circular dependencies between the packages. But it's nice to know it's possible to have them if you need them.
11:35:56
atgreen
Ok, thanks for the tips. I do have a top-level package.lisp for the 'main' package, but everything else is oppf. See https://github.com/atgreen/red-light-green-light .
12:57:19
galdor
anyone interested about maintaining it is free to contact me to transfer the repository
13:52:14
untakenstupidnic
everyone who uses lisp is so enthusiastic about it, some say SBCL's generated code can run faster than C. but if there was such a great language from ancient times and was so mainstream, how did C++ survive?
13:54:08
untakenstupidnic
and why is it so rarely used and unlike C# and java, i don't see efforts to rewrite the whole world in it?
14:04:19
phoe
untakenstupidnic: one such thing is http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
14:06:07
phoe
also opinion-based discussions from google, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=153812 and https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Lisp-not-as-popular-as-Python and https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/60012/why-isnt-lisp-more-widespread
14:06:26
Shinmera
it's not about lisp, it's just a fundamental property that good things don't become dominant just because they're good, and vice versa that dominant things are not necessarily good.
14:06:27
beach
untakenstupidnic: You make an assumption that just isn't true, namely that people are rational and that they would prefer things just because they are good. If you look around, you will see that this is not the case.
14:07:18
phoe
also because DARPA stopped funding AI work in the 80s and instead started paying for C++ projects much more
14:09:28
phoe
also note that your question can be flipped over; if C++ is so popular and used by the some of the largest softwaremaking players in the world, how did $LANGUAGE_NAME survive
14:12:09
phoe
this is a surprisingly non-trivial question with complex and mostly incomplete answers that differ per every language you might insert in there
14:31:50
untakenstupidnic
phoe: thanks! one link was enough. also the C++ thing can be explained because of excessive bloat and that some people care for maintainablity. phoe: beach: Shinmera: but people say it was dominant and is the ultimate language, and people normally don't break the status que for making things worse.
14:32:56
untakenstupidnic
thanks for answering and if a question gets asked every day, ##C solves that with bots.
14:38:55
Shinmera
If a function dispatches based on type but nobody is around to see it, is it actually generic?
14:39:36
Shinmera
phoe: I feel like a canned bot answer won't really satisfy people that are genuinely looking for the answer, and won't stop people who're just trolling.
14:40:42
beach
I agree with Shinmera. I think we should take on the question each time, adapted to the exact question of course. It doesn't happen that often, and we get to show off our friendliness if the troll is not too bad.
14:42:20
phoe
Shinmera: no, why? one can ask minion about "popularity" to not need to google for these links again and again
14:43:51
minion
phoe: look at popularity: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html and http://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=153812 and https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Lisp-not-as-popular-as-Python and https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/60012/why-isnt-lisp-more-widespread
14:47:15
phoe
someone will if the libraries are used; do you plan on disappearing any time in the near future?
14:48:08
Shinmera
And even if I don't plan to it would be nice if I didn't have to maintain everything while I'm still around. That's a lot to ask for though, I know.
14:48:37
phoe
correct, maintenance is a burden in general, especially maintenance that no one pays you for
14:49:12
jebes
i'm currently unemployed (and probably for the forseeable future) and need some resume boosters, i'd love to help out where I can
14:49:59
Shinmera
Not sure lisp would boost that resume much, but maybe you can pawn it off as "open source work"
14:50:46
jebes
shinmera: the only jobs here are enterprise jobs and there's barely developers to begin with. I don't need much of a resume to get a job lmao
14:50:52
phoe
sure thing you can, working with other people on alive FOSS projects is a useful skill on its own regardless of the languages and technology used
14:55:37
phoe
Shinmera: I think the current README should have links to some of the videos you posted of it in action
14:56:56
Shinmera
phoe: Fair point. They're here for now. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9Mh3BWdBmt4JtIrwYgihTWp
14:57:26
Shinmera
and doing this got me where I needed to be faster than if I needed to figure out how to make a usable GL backend with CLIM.
15:00:11
Shinmera
Alloy has a GL backend, and you can use it for that, yes. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/1203361882113036288
15:00:25
pfdietz
Unmaintained libraries are more useful if they're matured to a state where they need little or no maintenance.
15:01:15
pfdietz
Not referring to anything you have done in that comment, but I see libraries up on github from various sources that aren't fully baked.
15:01:33
Xach
pfdietz: the prove incident is interesting to me because prove is considered obsolete, but is still widely used, and although it didn't change, one of its active prerequisites did.
15:01:34
Shinmera
pfdietz: True enough. Sadly with most of my stuff I don't know if people are just not using them, or there's no bugs, or they just don't report them and give up.
15:02:13
pfdietz
I have been spending a little time recently trying to harden some public projects there.
15:02:26
Xach
Shinmera: i've found out about patches to my projects in weird indirect ways, when nobody bothered to tell me about them.
15:03:17
Xach
jebes: a prerequisite of prove changed and prove stopped building. prove is not maintained but is still used by a dozen+ projects.
15:03:36
Ampws
I wonder ... if common lisp is suitable for the study of computational neuroscience...It seems that MATLAB is always used in this subject...
15:03:45
Xach
prove itself kept building but a prerequisite introduced a new dependency that made other stuff break in certain circumstances.
15:04:07
pfdietz
Ampws: that would likely come down to availability of the necessary libraries and interfacing to other tools.
15:05:09
pfdietz
Xach: the issue was use of an unexported symbol, right? Curation for that in widely used systems would be useful.
15:05:37
jebes
you're welcome. Back in my day we had to write everything in assembly to run forth to run psuedo-lisp to control telescopes
15:05:46
Xach
pfdietz: oh yeah, that was part of it, and then there was another part that was another problem.
15:10:32
jebes
Ampws: out of curiousity what tech stacks do computational neuroscience use in matlab?
15:15:16
jebes
i do want to write a gpgpu system in lisp, unless anyone knows of one already in existence
15:23:18
phoe
nirved: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/3r8pew/opencl_binding_for_common_lisp/ lists some
15:29:58
Shinmera
jebes: I'm the guy that writes everything himself and yes it is a bad idea if you want to be done in a timely fashion.
15:32:41
Xach
Shinmera: some article or blog about some lisp experience that mentions patching something in passing
15:54:02
Shinmera
jebes: If you're serious about helping out, feel free to stop by #shirakumo, the primary channel for project discussion around what I do.
17:02:07
neuro_sys
Why does 2.el behave differently than 1.el in terms of scope rules? https://gist.github.com/neuro-sys/b5ca549674f1968f1a61da9f07b38c3f (Although note, this is Elisp, was hoping people here are knowledgable about it too).