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9:53:13
lukego
Hey are there some good answers to the question, "Why (Mc)CLIM?" I think that I started off interested in presentation-based interfaces in general, then to McCLIM as the most substantial open source implementation, and now it actually seems less about CLIM per se and more about just an interesting framework that other people are actively hacking on together.
9:54:22
lukego
I mean, I suspect it could be technically easier to do my own work just starting from scratch with an ad-hoc geometry library and e.g. output to SVG, but the attraction of McCLIM is the opportunity to collaborate with your good selves and build something better than what the sum of random private hacks would be
9:55:52
lukego
CLIM itself I'm not sure how I feel about... is it actually a good spec? I don't know, it's pretty elaborate, I don't really know how to evaluate it compared with whatever else people use these days.
9:56:33
lukego
but maybe that is secondary if it's a common project for various people doing visual stuff with Lisp to use as a point of collaboration
9:57:06
Duuqnd
I'm currently working on a game and these tools are so that non-programmers can quickly make some basic things without worrying about poking around in source code.
9:59:46
jackdaniel
the spec is good (it has flaws) in a sense that it accumulates needs for various gui writing paradigms;; implementing it imo will empower lisp programmers to use it as a driver for lisp applications disregarding of the type
10:01:44
jackdaniel
presentation based systems (or command driven interfaces) are a novel option, not the /only way to use it/ as you have certainly noticed
10:03:57
jackdaniel
so my own answer to "Why (Mc)CLIM?" would be - because it is complete with many iterations based on user feedback
12:03:34
lukego
I wonder if we need a little CLIM mini-conference to get a better idea of what's going on and who's doing what
12:25:09
lukego
or are there such things? I know there have been various low-key online lisp meetups this past year or so
13:17:39
beach
A "meeting" would be a better forum I think. A "conference" would be mostly a bunch of talks. No?
14:28:43
lukego
and maybe there would be a better medium too e.g. github issues somewhere just tracking what people are hacking on with some links/screenshots. I dunno, just have a sense that there's a community here that's mostly invisible
14:29:28
lukego
for example the graphviz layout hack is really interesting and relevant to me but it's only by chance that I saw it mentioned by someone and could easily lose track of it
14:30:48
lukego
I guess whatever a mcclim-users mailing list would look like in the post-mailing-lists world of 2021
14:37:33
splittist
It may well be that CLIM is like CL itself, with a constellation of non-interacting collections of users/programmers. For all we know the orbital sander design industry runs entirely on CLIM applications. We just never see those folks; and vice versa.
14:47:20
lukego
splittist: but isn't it a beautiful thing when those groups finally meet? like when all the european lispers met for the first time at ECLM or ECOOP
14:49:10
splittist
lukego: I think there's a difference - ECLM was people who knew each other electronically, for the most part, wasn't it? I'm talking about people who don't know each other because there is no shared communication channel. How do you reach the folks you haven't reached because you can't reach them?
14:49:40
lukego
Maybe it's hard to herd the cats though. I stopped using mailing lists many years ago and I find IRC pretty unsatisfying for "big picture" kind of stuff like understanding who is working on what
14:51:24
lukego
but I take the point that inventing more communication channels can just spread everything even thinner
14:54:23
lukego
maybe what I should be looking into is a convenient way to track the various Git repos where stuff is happening
15:04:43
lukego
yeah, probably not. but at least here is some activity, it is substantial (code), it's organized (repos/branches), and it's up-to-date (history is there -- albeit maybe not new unpushed changes)
15:05:32
lukego
I suppose that I need some kind of integration branch too e.g. I'd like to have the latest changes from master and the experimental changes from CLIME and the graphviz dot layout. and... maybe other stuff too that I'm not conscious of?
15:38:47
lukego
Just an idea: How about if we had a mcclim repo on Github somewhere that tracked all the main branches of ongoing development? So it would have e.g. master branch, scymtym's branch, clime branch, dot branch, etc, and keep them up to date e.g. with automatic mirroring. that way you could keep your "finger on the pulse" by watching what gets pushed to branches on that repo
15:39:28
lukego
I find that I'm losing sync a little e.g. I'm living on the clime branch which is falling behind the master branch and doesn't have the dot branch changes that I want etc.
15:40:31
lukego
maybe I should just make an integration branch that merges all the stuff I want but then it can be a chore to switch back and forth between that and the "clime" feature branch when hacking on that, and I couldn't pull changes like the scymtym ones that are interesting and I want to be aware of but don't merge cleanly onto the mainline branch
17:19:03
jackdaniel
lukego: you may track individual repositories by selecting "watch repository" (the same goes for people)
17:19:32
jackdaniel
you may also check the repository graph via github user interface (click "forks" and you'll see the tree, there are other views at commit data)
17:20:08
jackdaniel
the only thing missing from things you describe is the "integration branch", but that requires a separate maintanance effort, so you'd need to find a person who does that
17:40:02
alanz
The other thing that's missing is discovery, in the sense of being a logical place to look for where the community is. Perhaps keeping https://cliki.net/CLIM and https://cliki.net/McCLIM fully up to date would help