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6:16:54
z3t0
stylewarning: honestly I only just began commmon lisp and the only issues i have had are libraries or lack there of for many "common" application uses such as graphics, templating etc
6:17:34
aeth
If you don't think there are many libraries for graphics, you'll be disappointed for literally everything else except maybe web stuff.
6:57:40
stylewarning
People use it commercially for anything from GUIs to embedded systems to backend infrastructure
7:09:02
stylewarning
And, unless I've missed something big, there are no usable libraries for it that cover it anywhere near comprehensively.
7:10:40
stylewarning
It's nice that there's a cliki page, but attempt to use any of the libraries to, say, do the utterly trivial thing of computing the conjugate transpose of a complex float matrix.
7:14:10
stylewarning
The problem will be one of the following: complex numbers not supported, complex numbers broken with FFI, library-included F77 LAPACK is patched or out-of-date, library won't load at all, source code is undocumented and inspecting the source requires you to untangle 11 layers of macros and a home-rolled re-implementation of generic functions
7:19:23
stylewarning
This is just to transpose a matrix and conjugate it's entries. Of course, rolling your own on a 2D array is <= 5 lines of code. But unfortunately the next level of basic things like numerically stable SVD are orders of magnitude more difficult to implement, and almost surely a bad idea.
7:22:54
stylewarning
This sort of project is of course possible to implement in Lisp. But it requires careful programming, excellent interface design skills, a good understanding of compilers and runtimes, and a no-nonsense approach to generalization.
7:23:36
stylewarning
shka: If we—the collective of Lisp programmers—can't even steal LAPACK, there's no hope to stealing SciPy.
7:25:05
stylewarning
shka: I am a little bitter, because this makes my day job harder. And it has been an impediment in 3 professional settings.
7:26:19
Shinmera
A lot of people that are drawn to CL are individualists and avoid anything that would force them to do what they don't want to.
7:28:56
Shinmera
I don't really like it when people talk about what "we" need, or need to do. If you want people to be interested in what you want, do it, and do it well enough to get them interested.
7:30:29
beach
Shinmera: I totally agree about disliking opinions about what "we" need or need to do.
7:30:30
Shinmera
I for one am not a strong enough person to be able to juggle community management alongside coding, so I just don't bother and just write what I want. I don't have the energy to try and convince people to help me out.
7:32:47
Shinmera
Handle input, manage assets, get you a GL context, load collada models, present a shader pipeline, do hierarchical shader composition, and other stuff I forget.
7:33:39
Shinmera
Here's a 4 hour in-depth stream about the engine internals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v6iv_3BLeo&index=8&list=PLkDl6Irujx9Poirb63aATXXWHCVCHwlQA
7:33:56
Shinmera
The playlist also has some gamedev streams in it, which show a more practical approach.
7:35:09
Shinmera
On that note, this weekend there's going to be another Ludum Dare contest and I'll be streaming during that as much as possible.
7:37:11
stylewarning
If anyone is actually interested in some Lisp linear algebra writing, let me know, you can possibly get paid to do it. (Likewise with SBCL development.)
7:43:02
Shinmera
z3t0: As of right now I can't advise the use of Trial for anything but the development of itself. I can't guarantee the stability of any of its components due to the experimental nature of the project.
7:45:35
Shinmera
Most people use git & some hoster for vcs. There's a brazillion testing frameworks out there and more are being made by the day (probably).
7:46:53
Shinmera
But anyhow, vcs and ci are only really useful when your software is already stable.
7:49:08
stylewarning
Reducing interactive features of your software helps stability. Reducing "options at a distance" helps. Reducing generality. Not relying on undocumented APIs. Staying portable or de facto portable.
7:49:54
Shinmera
Documenting your own stuff and getting others to try it also helps tremendously, I find.
7:51:51
Shinmera
Other people are much more useful because they don't have the same cognitive predisposition as you do
10:50:40
Harag
anybody else using emacs 25 on ubuntu 17.04 my slime menu is empty and buffer list is iffy...cant see anything on a google search...
11:01:55
Harag
:loke not an expert but this is a clean install of ubuntu and emacs 25 what would have messed up init.el... quicklisp slime helper?
14:07:01
stylewarning
shka: good LAPACK bindings are hard to do portably, require one to know how to load foreign libraries—system provided, possibly written in Fortran
14:08:35
stylewarning
It would be a difficult endeavor to rewrite LAPACK, yes. But if you used pure Lisp, you avoid tons of issues that you only get by binding with LAPACK
14:11:07
stylewarning
You can get within a single digit number of orders of magnitude (<5) from a portable BLAS/LAPACK
14:13:36
Harag
was having issues with my slime menu in ubuntu 17.04 and emacs 25 in a fresh install, thought it was my .emacs loading something that messes it up but turns out that ubuntu uses /usr/bin/emacs25 and when you use that menus go for ball of .... change it to /usr/bin/emacs and slime menus work fine... heres to an hour waisted
14:15:47
stylewarning
I went through the exercise of writing a portable but fast linear algebra library. All of BLAS (essentially) + a good number of LAPACK essentials. But it was exceedingly hard and weeks and weeks of full-time paid work
14:19:21
Shinmera
I did some linear algebra stuff in 3d-matrices, but I didn't have to make it fast or guaranteed precise, so the pain was reduced.
14:20:59
stylewarning
Vectors and matrices for 3D programming is usually pretty minimal. One lisp file and maybe 100 or so lines of code
14:22:56
Shinmera
It also definitely falls into your category of "untangling x levels of horrible macros".
14:26:29
stylewarning
Shinmera: those macros are at least understandable compared to https://github.com/matlisp/matlisp/blob/master/src/base/coordinate-accessor.lisp
14:33:39
Shinmera
Aight. https://github.com/matlisp/matlisp/blob/master/src/utilities/template.lisp#L88
14:34:33
JuanDaugherty
coloring within the lines of CLOS may be beyond the capabilities of the average bear
14:38:31
stylewarning
Anyway, definitely not looking to put down that library and that person's hard work, but it is a good example of a different point on this spectrum of library quality and construction
15:14:59
beach
I wonder whether that was a list of things JuanDaugherty avoids: 1. disputations. 2. me. 3. other nasty stuffs. That would imply that I am some nasty stuff.
15:15:33
Shinmera
Making a wrong statement, ignoring questions about it, and then calling people questioning small minded sure is quite the stunt.