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5:01:45
no-defun-allowed
Probably not, you'd be trying to make an ice sculpture by melting ice with your breath.
5:03:42
fiddlerwoaroof
In theory, this would allow VSCode to have access to at least some of the information it needs to support common lisp
5:04:26
no-defun-allowed
I don't think LSP has the interactivity SLIME (or even a straight CL REPL) offers.
5:06:15
no-defun-allowed
The limitations exist in LSP itself to my knowledge; there are no commands for sending code to a language process.
5:06:59
djeis[m]
You need something like a debugger adapter if you want to send code to a process in VSCode.
5:07:36
no-defun-allowed
Admittedly, a larger particle such as the top quark would have been a better namesake.
5:07:40
fiddlerwoaroof
otherwise, unless you want to use emacs, your choices are lem (written in CL, but has an electron frontend, I believe) or vim
5:08:13
fiddlerwoaroof
There are at least two different vim plugins that I've heard that people use: slimv and vlime
5:08:40
no-defun-allowed
The difference between Atom and Emacs's memory consumption is comparable to the difference in electron and top quark sizes. Anyway, back to Lisp.
5:08:41
djeis[m]
Honestly Lisp is best used with very tight editor integration, and atom slime covers the basics but the best integration is with emacs.
5:09:40
fiddlerwoaroof
Also, lem looks like it might be better than either, if I could be bothered to learn a whole new editor without much of a community :)
5:09:45
djeis[m]
Imo they only lag behind slime/sly by a small bit, and sometimes have interesting unique features.
5:09:51
c4droid
fiddlerwoaroof: If i want to use emacs, i need a pretty good configuration, I wroted configuration is too simple, not modulized
5:10:56
fiddlerwoaroof
Although, both of those might be more for people that want a vim-like editing experience
5:11:21
c4droid
fiddlerwoaroof: I don't like that, that to heavy to me. I like lightweight development environment
5:11:29
djeis[m]
I've used both spacemacs and doom. Doom is a little less simple to set up, and catching up on features still, but it looks nice and is really snappy.
5:13:26
no-defun-allowed
Some of the greatest Lisp editors actually ran in the Lisp they were controlling.
5:13:56
no-defun-allowed
beach: there are more opinionated configurations for Emacs that come with a lot of packages preinstalled or managed.
5:13:58
djeis[m]
Emacs is already a really heavyweight editor, and much of spacemacs and doom is just defaults for other packages.
5:14:54
no-defun-allowed
For example, spacemacs comes with (optional) vim emulation and quite a fair bit of theming out of the box.
5:15:14
djeis[m]
But I understand the instinct to build your configuration yourself so you understand it.
5:15:23
beach
no-defun-allowed: But who cares if you don't use it? Is it the cost of the disk space?
5:16:13
c4droid
beach: yeah. I like myself to write configure code to change emacs let me can free to code.
5:16:19
aeth
I hope doom-emacs is a modification of the Doom source release to integrate GNU Emacs into Doom (the original, not the 2016 one, obviously)
5:16:30
no-defun-allowed
Well, I think Spacemacs is a good way to convert vim users, so it feels a bit like a vim replica more than an Emacs.
5:16:34
fiddlerwoaroof
personally, I found that alot of the fancy emacs configs were too much for me
5:16:45
verisimilitude
File storage space, RAM, speed, and other considerations are still important and likely always will be, so long as wasteful crap exists.
5:16:59
fiddlerwoaroof
And I could put together something decent with use-package + referring to my preferred vim setup for ideas
5:17:04
aeth
You don't really need fancy Emacs configs anymore now that Emacs has a package manager.
5:17:19
no-defun-allowed
The keybindings and chords in Spacemacs are often quite different to the classic *macs keys too.
5:18:34
c4droid
Only write `package-install' fuction wrapper, after that, you can install any package and to configure it.
5:20:01
no-defun-allowed
So, beach, my problem isn't that Spacemacs installs a lot of packages and utilities, it's that those utilities change Emacs in quite a way I wouldn't be comfortable using.
5:21:36
no-defun-allowed
Maybe if I had just picked up Emacs for the first time, it might be more appealing, though it'd also be harder to get support for.
5:27:35
beach
c4droid: I personally think there is a problem when the software is not behaving as it is documented to behave, and that you need to read unrelated documentation (that may or may not exist) in order to understand how to use your editor.
5:28:16
beach
c4droid: But I am lost now. If you don't mind using Emacs, why not just use the standard configuration, and SLIME to that, and off you go. No need for Visual Studio.
5:37:55
fiddlerwoaroof
beach: spacemacs is a bit different from other custom emacs configurations because I think the project conceives of itself as essentially a new editor that reuses a bunch of code from emacs
5:39:06
fiddlerwoaroof
And, they do a fairly good job of creating a coherent + documented user experience
5:39:36
fouric
unrelated: would it be accurate to say that conditions are messages passed up the stack and restarts are messages passed back down in response?
5:40:29
fouric
in general, i'm trying to understand conditions and restarts, and here i'm trying to make an analogy to message-passing, but i'm eager to receive any dispensed wisdom
5:40:50
fouric
doesn't higher-level code invoke a restart that actually gets executed by lower-level code though?
5:40:55
fiddlerwoaroof
as a rule the call to invoke-restart comes from the highest level, the restart is defined at an intermediate level and a condition is signealed at the lowest level
5:41:34
fiddlerwoaroof
so the restart goes "up the stack" to the toplevel and the toplevel gets to decide which restart to use, and passes that decision "down the stack"
5:42:07
fouric
wait, i thought that you could have intermediate-level code invoke restarts - is there no programatic way to do it?
5:42:55
fiddlerwoaroof
so the restart invocation goes down the stack, but the fact that a restart is invokable comes "up the stack"
5:46:19
fiddlerwoaroof
Seibel does a pretty good job of explaining this and showing it in a practical setting
6:42:25
fiddlerwoaroof
I'm not entirely a fan of its style, but the way it uses the language is fairly different from how I use it
7:13:34
fouric
i've read through the chapter at least twice, but wasn't able to parse it very well, unfortunately
8:32:17
mfiano
Is there anything that can help me to check that a form is in the correct shape, so I can emit a meaningful error message for the user in the DSL I am writing, before parsing it with destructuring-bind giving them a bad error?
8:33:15
beach
In general, you would have to write a parser for it, using one of the parser-generator libraries.
8:35:46
mfiano
The form is quite simple. I should just manually parse it. It looks like '(some-symbol (&key &allow-other-keys) &key &allow-other-keys)
8:38:47
verisimilitude
If you don't care to write a great error message and depending on what the expansion is, you could always just write it so rule violations cause the expansion to fail in compilation; this is what I like to do.
10:57:54
schweers
Depending on the order in which I have my test cases, one branch or the other is claimed to be taken only one way. So some data seems to be lost?
11:00:29
schweers
I’m off for lunch for now, so sorry for not following up on any answers which may come ;)
11:04:33
scymtym
schweers: are you looking at the coverage of the test code itself? some test frameworks compile the test code when running the tests instead of ahead of time
11:56:28
flip214
> pkhuong> | I should also commit my fix to make SB-COVER obey in-package roughly the same way as swank
11:57:05
schweers
I have no idea. I just stumbled upon the coverage tool a few days ago and really like it.
12:04:19
loke
and there are about 300 billion different OBJ formats. :-) Which one are you thinking of?
12:05:06
flip214
loke: No, a 3D file format (from Stereolithography) -- nowadays used for 3D printing
12:12:05
flip214
where can I see what the source location of https://quickref.common-lisp.net/stl.html is?
15:30:33
akr
Hi, once I'm at a breakpoint in the debugger and I see the call stack, how do I examine the arguments with which a call in the stack was performed?
15:51:52
schweers
I wonder why people (myself included) find it harder to read all caps text than all lowercase text.
15:52:27
verisimilitude
I believe the explanation is we're more accustomed to lowercase and so better at recognizing it.
15:53:08
verisimilitude
That was my second guess. In any case, I can't link to the source, as I don't recall it.
15:53:27
sjl_
I like the all caps when looking at a repl session because it's easy to distinguish my input from the output. But it is pretty miserable to read large blocks of it like that.
15:54:27
verisimilitude
It makes for a nice delimiter for when I want to refer to Common Lisp. If I write in uppercase, it's rather easy to know which symbol I'm referring to.
15:56:40
verisimilitude
I recall being criticized for using it in my documentation, _death; I was told it belongs in the 1980s or something or another to that general effect.
16:01:06
_death
verisimilitude: don't take it too seriously.. opinions vary and there is an abundance of peanuts ;)
16:03:20
verisimilitude
Now since you're here, _death, I was wondering about that library you've been writing. What's the progress on that?
16:03:23
_death
verisimilitude: in general I wouldn't use &aux, because I don't think the lambda list is the right place for such variables.. but style flows and ebbs with years and programs..
16:07:36
_death
verisimilitude: well, I did touch it since our conversation, but mostly to pretty up some interfaces.. the pace for personal projects is the snail's..
16:09:01
_death
verisimilitude: sure.. in the meantime, it would be helpful to set up a git repository of your libraries though
16:10:36
verisimilitude
Well, I try to not release anything breaking. What did you have an issue with in particular?
16:11:16
verisimilitude
I've been trying to mostly add to ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, rather than change what's already there in a way that would break something.
16:11:55
_death
verisimilitude: I think you removed the mouse enable/disable function names from the export list
16:13:05
verisimilitude
Oh; I did do that, yes; I decided it wasn't reasonable to provide that. I generally try to avoid doing that, though.
16:16:28
_death
verisimilitude: I suggest to give it a try.. it's a complex tool but if you have the right model it's fairly simple to understand, and most of the time it's fairly simple to operate..
16:17:18
_death
verisimilitude: for a simple model, I think https://jwiegley.github.io/git-from-the-bottom-up/ was helpful
16:18:05
_death
verisimilitude: but for simple use, just create a directory, "git init", add some files, change them, and use "git-gui" to commit etc... and yes, magit is great too
16:19:51
verisimilitude
I've taken a quick look and everything currently in ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL will stay, certainly. There's a PROPERTIES and (SETF PROPERTIES), but that's not documented because I'd like to have a better name and I'm not certain how I should best expose that, if at all.
16:20:28
verisimilitude
Considering these libraries are single files, I'd rather avoid this, _death, but I appreciate the advice in any case.
16:22:31
_death
verisimilitude: I'm guessing you associate version control with heavy set ups (servers, multiple authors) and this is why you wish to avoid it
16:23:21
verisimilitude
I'd rather avoid learning an explicit worse-is-better version of a decent file system.
16:25:30
verisimilitude
That's the gist of the present, I suppose. I know I should probably start doing something different.
16:26:00
verisimilitude
I've been told that my stuff is neat, but if I'm not on Github or some other big site it will mostly go ignored, and that's true, unfortunately.
16:26:06
_death
verisimilitude: just take an hour or so playing with chapter 1/2 of https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2
16:27:52
_death
verisimilitude: it's not necessary to use github, although it makes things simpler.. you can set up your own git serving daemon, or even a web front.. (you don't even need that; git can use http to clone a repository, but...) it's not a big deal
16:29:29
verisimilitude
Well, unlike everyone else who's told me to do this, you're actually using some of my software, so I'll consider it, _death.
16:30:30
_death
verisimilitude: sure.. maybe you'll find that it's very convenient (especially with magit...) to use git for any text that you happen to be editing
16:31:17
verisimilitude
As with most software, I'm going to want to use it as little as possible, _death.
16:31:24
schweers
git can even be useful locally, if you are the only person using it, and not sharing it across any machines.
16:34:47
verisimilitude
In any case, SHUT-IT-DOWN and CL-ECMA-48 are effectively finished and I could leave them as is, even though I'll occasionally make minor improvements, so I'd only be using git for ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL if I decide to use git.