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18:42:35
pjb
trafaret1: you, I don't know. But Paul Graham made millions with CL, writing a program in clisp, and selling it to Yahoo!.
18:43:17
pjb
trafaret1: so at least, it's possible, and since lisp is fun, you may be able to do it having fun. With C++, you'd be about to do it, but in hellish tortures.
21:10:51
aeth
I think Lisp code looks better than code in most languages, but if you're in it for the money, no one's going to see your code's elegance/inelegance amd you can always pay someone to clean up your technical debt later.
22:24:10
no-defun-allowed
With PG's case, he had a better chance working in Lisp since it was better for prototyping and live development. I'd argue that you have a better chance with Lisp but PG is pretty biased since he didn't fail.
22:42:29
aeth
if you're building software to last 20 years, I suspect pg's experience here is irrelevant
22:44:02
aeth
You want a language where you can make sure something is (integer 2 #.(isqrt most-positive-fixnum))
23:23:14
aeth
I'm using a 16 year old web browser, a 19 year old IRC client, a (probably) 12 year old terminal, a 38 year old compiler (if you count the original branch), a 33 year old editor, etc.
23:24:02
aeth
All the software I'm using except maybe the terminal (it's lxterminal and LXDE is moving everything to Qt) has a very good chance to make it past 20 if it's not already past 20
23:25:29
jasom
we are using different definitions of "last" then since I suspect most of that software has changes made in the past year or two.
23:26:45
aeth
jasom: My point is, if something's going to be around for decades anyway, you should optimize for the multi-decade maintenance period, not the first few years of rapid development
23:27:12
aeth
And a lot of website code is probably already at or approaching this 20 year point now in 2018.
23:27:57
aeth
Of course, a language that's mostly compatible with things written 59 years ago is a good choice to write multi-decade software in.
23:28:35
jasom
a core argument was that if you didn't optimize for being successful now, you will be starved of resources by those that do
23:35:38
aeth
jasom: on the other hand, that essay was refuted a few years later in Worse is Better is Worse by Richard P Gabriel
23:40:22
jasom
"And in preparation for this panel, the organizer, Martine Devos, asked me to write a position paper, which I did, called "Back to the Future: Is Worse (Still) Better?" In this short paper, I came out against worse is better. But a month or so later, I wrote a second one, called "Back to the Future: Worse (Still) is Better!" which was in favor of it. I still can’t decide."
1:01:36
definite
Blackbeard: I was considering installing GuixSD, but everything is difficult with free drivers. I suppose I could use the package manager alone (I've heard that suggestion before, more commonly for Nix + Haskell).
1:02:40
definite
Speaking of Guix, why is there a Scheme distro and no Common Lisp one (AFAIK, I'd be happy to be corrected) if CL is always advertised as the "full-featured systems language" of the two?
1:04:06
aeth
definite: What really makes a distro is the package manager and its software respositories... So I guess the only thing is that people haven't written a Unix package manager in CL (or at least not one that has any major adoption)
1:04:29
aeth
A modern package manager would need encryption, probably through https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad if that's mature enough
1:04:32
definite
aeth: No, my Thinkpad has a whitelist of available WiFi cards and the one that I got to replace the old one isn't on it. I'm looking into bypassing it, but the only guide I've found which promises not to brick my computer is really old. Blackbeard: More of a question for the CL people.
1:07:19
definite
no-defun-allowed: Which Thinkpad is that? I got a T400 just to Libreboot it, but apparently you have to take apart the entire thing. I'm considering getting an X200 (only have to take off casing next to keyboard to access flashchip) and relegating this one to server duty.