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Wednesday, 22nd of February 2017, 8:40:31 UTC
9:11:54
edgar-rft
ah, in Germany it's raining...
9:12:52
loke
It's a nice day here too
9:13:28
loke
30° and late afternoon, making it somewhat cool.
9:43:06
phoe_
Xach: http://data.xach.com/cll.txt.gz gives me 404.
9:43:22
phoe_
Xach: via http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/notes.html
9:57:00
hydan
anybody know how to tell buildapp to compile the binary with specific, say older, glibc?
10:42:17
pillton
smokeink_: The reader I was talking about when we were discussing ASDF?
12:08:48
_death
phoe: https://adeht.org/dump/cll.7z
12:28:33
malice`
What happened to the header(MOTD?)?
12:28:54
malice`
phoe_: is it the final countdown?
12:28:58
phoe_
fe[nl]ix: maybe you know what happened to the header
12:29:32
phoe_
_death: c.l.l looks like a fairly interesting, if outright weird, archive of knowledge to dive in
12:37:48
phoe_
I still don't get any of this
12:37:57
fe[nl]ix
the user I just kicked out changed it a few hours ago
12:38:08
phoe_
wait, can everyone just change the topic?
12:38:18
fe[nl]ix
now, if I could just get the last one
12:38:27
phoe_
it should be in the logs as well
12:38:30
fe[nl]ix
phoe_: yes. one tries to be friendly and this happens
12:39:15
phoe_
Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|SBCL 1.3.14, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11|ASDF 3.2.0
12:39:36
phoe_
let's fix it a bit while we're at it
12:40:37
phoe_
Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.14, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.0
12:44:01
_death
phoe: yes, many hours were spent spelunking that particular corner
12:44:09
phoe_
fe[nl]ix: I can't set the topic though
12:44:17
phoe_
could you op its way into its proper place?
13:02:39
sjl
any other iterate users have an elegant solution for the annoying "every iterate clause must have an even number of args" thing?
13:03:23
sjl
e.g. I made a driver to generate fibonacci numbers so I can do (iterate (for f :in-fibonacci t) (finding f :such-that ...))
13:03:45
sjl
but that 't' in the driver clause is annoying me
13:04:08
sjl
it's just a variable I ignore because iterate wants arguments in pairs :\
13:04:23
phoe_
clhs GET-OUTPUT-STREAM-STRING
13:04:23
specbot
http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_ou.htm
13:17:45
byte1
hi! i am make this definition of a constant
13:18:05
byte1
and i would like to be able to use ^ instead of and
13:18:21
byte1
(^ T nil) instead of (and T nil)
13:25:12
Xach
byte1: that is not how forms are evaluated
13:25:25
Xach
byte1: you could use defmacro instead.
13:25:42
Xach
(defmacro ^ (&rest forms) `(and ,@forms)) for example
14:13:20
phoe_
does he know the difference between vars and function calls in CL?
14:13:40
phoe_
...also, uh, why does he want to use ^ instead of &
14:14:24
malice`
joined too late to see him then
14:14:27
_death
guessing because it's similar to "∧", which is the symbol usually used for conjunction in logic
14:18:11
phoe_
_death: using the symbol |V|
14:18:17
phoe_
for alternative will be weird
14:19:18
malice`
(null {}) => T ; empty set is false
14:19:35
dlowe
unicode has the logical symbols available. seems like you could use those pretty easily
14:19:57
dlowe
I bet emacs has a mode that turns and/or/etc into their symbol equivalents
14:20:09
_death
yes, like pretty-lambda etc.
14:20:30
_death
(there's also pretty-greek)
14:20:58
dlowe
I wonder how far you could push the symbol-to-glyph overlays and what a program would look like
14:21:20
dlowe
It'd look like APL, I guess.
14:22:27
_death
I use pretty-lambda for some years.. chose not to push it further
14:26:14
shka
phoe_: don't judge so fast
14:28:13
phoe_
shka: defconstant creates a variable
14:28:29
phoe_
and you can't put a variable in a place of a function in a function call.
14:28:42
shka
phoe_: you seriously think i dont know that?
14:28:54
phoe_
shka: of course you know that.
14:29:03
phoe_
but that's why I judged so fast.
14:33:53
phoe_
clhs with-output-to-string
14:33:53
specbot
http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
14:33:59
phoe_
This page mentions a variable STRING.
14:34:13
phoe_
Where is this variable declared/used?
14:34:18
phoe_
I don't see it in Syntax.
14:35:06
jdz
phoe_: the one "produced" in string-form line?
14:36:52
dlowe
phoe_: It's in the "arguments and values" section, presumably as a value and not an argument.
14:37:13
dlowe
one derived from the argument string-form
14:39:29
phoe_
there's a variable called "string".
14:39:41
dlowe
there's a value called "string"
14:39:41
malice`
phoe_: string-form---a form or nil; if non-nil, evaluated to produce **string**.
14:40:01
phoe_
This is one weird place to declare a variable.
14:40:11
dlowe
that's because it's not a variable
14:40:32
phoe_
This is one weird place to declare a value.
14:40:49
dlowe
in the "arguments and values" section?
14:41:24
phoe_
At the end of another sentence.
14:42:06
dlowe
well, it's also in the line below.
14:42:23
dlowe
one has to come before the other.
14:43:04
phoe_
It took me four tries to get the meaning of this.
14:43:47
phoe_
Shouldn't it be, "The string, if supplied, is modified."
14:44:07
phoe_
because it's hard to modify something that wasn't supplied
14:49:26
jdz
Ever heard of side-effects?
14:50:18
phoe_
jdz: uh, you know what I mean
14:52:05
jdz
Yes; but then gain -- the string is always modified, be it supplied or not...
14:53:20
jdz
That could be relevant if one tries to pass the string around.
14:54:09
phoe_
if I supply a null string-form
14:54:14
phoe_
then *which* string is modified?
14:54:39
dlowe
The awkward "string" value
14:55:02
phoe_
dlowe: the "string" value is only produced when a non-nil string-form happens.
14:55:17
phoe_
when I provide a NIL as string-form, then which "string" is modified? the one that wasn't produced?
14:55:57
phoe_
How may a man mutate that which was not created?
14:56:16
dlowe
ok, you're right. *shrug*
14:57:52
jdz
As I read it: providing NIL is the same as not providing the string-form, if one wants to supply ELEMENT-TYPE.
14:58:23
dlowe
That is not freed which can eternal be in the permanent generation, and with strange aeons even the collector may be freed.
14:59:59
jdz
Yes, it does not specify that a fresh STRING is being created.
15:00:59
phoe_
"If no string is provided, then with-output-from-string produces a stream that accepts characters and returns a string of the indicated element-type."
15:01:11
phoe_
"...and returns a FRESH string of the..."
15:01:20
phoe_
I'd like the change to be like that.
15:01:28
phoe_
But then again - this is actually changing the *meaning* of the spec.
15:01:46
phoe_
Right now, it looks like returning a preallocated string is fine.
15:02:06
jdz
I personally would not want to use an implementation where I could not nest WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING...
15:02:11
phoe_
so (progn "foo" (with-output-to-string ...)) can return the first "foo" string.
15:02:16
phoe_
jdz: yes, sure thing, I know.
15:02:31
phoe_
but I'm talking about what the spec says, not what is sane and useful.
15:02:58
jdz
Well, it's always nice to remember that the spec was written by humans.
15:03:36
phoe_
But at the same time, I don't want to change the things it can mean.
15:03:45
phoe_
Not just what it means, but also what it *can* mean.
15:04:01
dlowe
Part of the value of a new spec layout is that you can keep the spec as is and append notes to it.
15:04:06
dlowe
Most of the value, really
15:04:17
phoe_
I want to add the second Editor Notes here.
15:04:26
phoe_
Like, the second occurrence of Editor Notes.
15:56:54
phoe_
ACTION finishes work on CLUS chapter Streams. Will push it upstream later today.
15:58:41
ogamita
broadcast-stream or echo-stream?
16:33:25
malice
Hi all! I want to use Roswell to test my library.
16:34:04
malice
I want to test it across different implementations and want to quickload my package and test it. I want to do using the same interface for all implementations.
16:34:19
malice
Is there some tutorial or do you know how to do that?
16:34:40
malice
I'm trying with .ros script, but it's both kind of ugly, and does not work for me - and debugging it looks tiresome...
16:37:44
Xach
I think there are roswell users, but I have not noticed many of them ehre
16:37:59
Xach
Maybe there is a reddit, stack overflow, or twitter community that would answer things?
16:38:16
malice
I actually see some tutorial on their github that I have overlooked, so I will try that.
16:49:16
easye
phoe_: URL please, when published.
16:50:06
phoe_
easye: the URL is always the same, http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus. it won't be visible for 15 more minutes though as the script only pulls changes every full hour.
16:50:49
phoe_
minion: tell easye about clus
16:50:50
minion
Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``clus''.
16:51:41
Xach
you can add http://cliki.net/clus and minion will know
16:52:05
oleo
minion: add http://cliki.net/clus
16:52:05
minion
does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
16:52:46
minion
There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
16:53:19
Xach
I mean, go to that url and edit the wiki
16:53:21
oleo
minion: add http://cliki.net/clus"
16:53:22
minion
add httpcliki.netclus": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/add%20httpcliki.netclus\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 44..
16:53:40
oleo
minion: add "http://cliki.net/clus"
16:53:41
minion
add "httpcliki.netclus": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/add%20\"httpcliki.netclus\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 27..
16:53:59
beach
oleo: You meed to /msg minion
16:54:11
beach
oleo: Not expose that stuff to everyone.
16:54:39
oleo
minion: tell easye about clus
16:54:40
minion
Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``clus''.
16:54:59
Xach
oleo: the "database" in this case is cliki.
16:55:13
Xach
oleo: if you edit cliki (and you can, it is a wiki), minion will be updated.
16:57:48
beach
minion: Please tell oleo about clus.
16:57:48
minion
oleo: direct your attention towards clus: CLUS is the Common Lisp UlstraSpec, a modern and corrected specification of the Common Lisp language and related material. See http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus for the current state of the project
16:59:41
beach
I added it directly to minion.
16:59:54
Xach
adding to cliki is also good
17:00:27
beach
Last time I looked, minion was unable to parse the new Cliki format, giving an error message every time.
17:00:28
phoe_
beach: message me the syntax.
17:00:39
phoe_
I'll most likely need it someday.
17:00:48
beach
phoe_: Why me? Ask minion? I did.
17:01:23
phoe_
"adding terms" is right there
17:03:15
Xach
ACTION remembers when pcl was added with a date to make it clear when in the future it was coming out
17:03:58
beach
minion: Please tell me about Flexichain.
17:03:58
minion
Flexichain: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Flexichain
17:04:22
phoe_
It at least mentions there's a cliki page.
17:04:33
beach
Apparently, the Cliki syntax was modified, and the minion maintainer was not happy with it, vowing not to teach minion how to parse it.
17:05:14
beach
It probably says something about our community.
17:05:46
dlowe
as far as I can tell, it says that our community is totally normal
17:06:26
phoe_
It's weird, but I expect to have the full dictionaries parsed and somewhat fixed before March.
17:06:32
beach
dlowe: Sure, with the exact definition of "normal", i.e., "conforming to the norm".
17:07:11
beach
I for one prefer a community that is a wee bit better than the norm.
17:07:25
Bike
"normal, and the norm sucks"
17:07:50
phoe_
that's a low norm we have there
17:08:54
beach
phoe_: Anyway, if you prefer for people to see that error message from minion, you can remove the term I added and instead create a Cliki page.
17:09:13
phoe_
beach: thank you, I'll pass.
17:09:18
phoe_
minion: tell minion about clus
17:09:18
minion
minion: please look at clus: CLUS is the Common Lisp UlstraSpec, a modern and corrected specification of the Common Lisp language and related material. See http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus for the current state of the project
17:10:46
phoe_
I love how the dictionary for chapter Structures looks
17:11:04
phoe_
just a single 47kB text file - DEFSTRUCT
17:11:33
fouric
phoe_: i just took a look at CLUS
17:11:37
fouric
it looks...really really cool
17:12:57
phoe_
fouric: it's still without concepts and glossary, not hyperlinked properly/enough, pretty bug-ridden and unpolished
17:13:00
Bike
sidebar still isn't working though. o well
17:13:08
Bike
probably the biggest doku i've ever seen
17:13:08
phoe_
Bike: it won't work for a while.
17:13:26
phoe_
the links on the sidebar will link to chapters, and I'm not doing chapters until I've done dictionaries.
17:13:40
fouric
phoe_: so it's exactly like some operating systems i've used
17:13:46
phoe_
fouric: still, I'm glad you find the project useful regardless.
17:13:59
fouric
(1) there's stuff *there*
17:14:07
Bike
so, what, you're onto printer now? almost done
17:14:08
fouric
(2) there's potential for a lot more stuff
17:14:16
Bike
soon you will learn about all the system construction functions nobody uses
17:14:35
fouric
(3) you had a neat idea for a code example format that looks pretty and i like it
17:14:58
Bike
oh, it looks like you're done with streams from the todo
17:15:15
phoe_
well, system construction is actually used
17:15:15
Bike
oh, maybe you're not doing them in order.
17:15:22
phoe_
Bike: oh, I am doing them in order
17:15:26
phoe_
except it's alphabetical order
17:15:50
phoe_
also about nobody using them, d'oh - I can see #clasp struggling with COMPILE-FILE and LOAD all the time
17:15:53
phoe_
so people actually use them
17:15:58
phoe_
(so other people don't need to)
17:16:09
Bike
obviously people use compile-file.
17:16:18
specbot
http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm
17:16:37
beach
It's in the "environment" chapter.
17:16:47
beach
That chapter has nothing to do with environments by the way.
17:17:26
Bike
if you're doing structures, there's that weird ambiguity with :type that came up here a couple days back
17:17:56
Bike
the arguments part disagrees with the description part
17:18:10
phoe_
Bike: please file an issue at https://github.com/phoe/clus-data
17:18:38
phoe_
and it's not about telling you to STFU, since I don't want you to to be quiet about it
17:18:45
phoe_
it's about me being unable to forget it this way
17:18:59
Bike
"file an issue on my project" would be a weird way to tell me to shut up
17:19:22
dlowe
I'll try that the next time someone pisses me off.
17:22:13
phoe_
http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications
17:22:25
phoe_
since *this* is a comprehensive and much much more complete list
17:23:16
phoe_
just create a new page with a proper title, you don't need an account for that.
17:23:21
Bike
oh i can still edit, how nice
17:23:24
phoe_
cliki is freely editable.
17:28:36
Bike
ok, it's on the page as "defstruct-type".
17:29:06
oleo
does anyone develop closure further ? closure the browser i mean.....
17:29:44
beach
I think someone in #clim expressed an interest a while ago, but I am not sure something really happened.
17:30:58
oleo
hmm, if it worked for all of http that would be nice yes....
17:31:23
oleo
you browse some pages and it spouts lots of errors about missing stuff.....
17:31:47
oleo
only works for some old pages
17:32:00
beach
Do you want to help improve it?
17:32:06
oleo
and even then it can't handle many things properly
17:32:22
oleo
i'd not be able to anyway....
17:32:33
oleo
that's beyond my capabilities for a while
17:33:21
oleo
btw, i'm trying to setup a new system beach, i screwed my old one......
17:33:33
beach
A web browser seemed like a reasonable project at the time, but now there are so many standards to support and for which one needs to track updates.
17:34:04
beach
oleo: Sorry to hear that. Good luck.
17:35:09
beach
Maybe this is the one project where I would think that using FFI to import functionality that we do not yet have natively would be a good idea.
17:35:28
oleo
right there are so many libs out there helping with parsing that stuff etc....
17:35:49
beach
Well, the HTML parser is actually very innovative.
17:35:51
oleo
you just need to bind them and enable them in the browser, giving the option to disable or totally discard them too probably...
17:36:08
beach
... in the way it handles traditional but incorrect HTML, which is common on web pages.
17:36:42
oleo
the webpages themselves don't stick to standards.....
17:36:58
oleo
i don't know why it should have a strickt notion of stuff anyway....
17:38:00
beach
oleo: Already, implementing all the elements of a standard is hard. Figuring out exactly what violations of a standard to support and what to do with them is way much harder.
17:41:45
oleo
do you think a start from scratch would be better beach ?
17:42:04
beach
I don't know. I haven't looked at the code.
17:43:05
beach
gilberth is an excellent hacker, but sometimes his code is a bit hard to follow, in particular when he doesn't document it, or when he writes his comments in German.
17:45:10
oleo
implementing the standard on the go would be nice....
17:45:55
oleo
like get the standards and implement one on the go for the system to use....and if the standards get changed upon registering a change update the implementation of the standards locally etc...
18:38:02
eudoxia
minion: do i have any outstanding memos
19:05:15
phoe
minion: memo for eudoxia: this is an outstanding memo
19:05:16
minion
Remembered. I'll tell eudoxia when he/she/it next speaks.
19:05:38
minion
eudoxia, memo from phoe: this is an outstanding memo
19:06:19
phoe
Bike: you haven't filed an issue
19:06:29
Bike
because i put it on cliki instead, like you said?
19:06:43
phoe
ACTION needs to get a brain replacement
19:06:58
akkad
ACTION has one only slightly used
20:09:23
Xach
can anyone figure out this failure? http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-02-22/failure-report/trivial-ws.html#trivial-ws-client
20:09:33
Xach
it's new today, but i can't see that any component parts have changed. i'm boggled.
20:11:16
phoe
Xach: what's expected to be in the package AS?
20:39:53
varjag
what's the most popular testing lib/framework out there
20:39:53
mood
Xach: trivial-ws-client depends on websocket-driver, which used to depend on cl-async. It stopped doing so 3 days ago
Wednesday, 22nd of February 2017, 20:40:31 UTC