freenode/#sicl - IRC Chatlog
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20:28:07
scymtym
as long as :TEST is considered a body form in (restart-case … (continue () :test))), i don't see a clear winner between the remaining alternatives
20:28:16
Bike
yours. I mean, in clasp this will expand to bla bla bla (restart-bind ((continue #'(lambda ...) :report-function #'1)) ...)
20:29:17
scymtym
ah, ok. that's slightly worse, i agree. i think it should be either an error or two body forms
4:04:28
no-defun-allowed
The enrolment server is back up, but I still don't have an account, and it will take another "few days" to get that sorted out. At least they will extend the enrolment deadline.
4:06:40
beach
So are they going to delay the start of classes too? Otherwise, there will be lectures without any students.
4:08:18
no-defun-allowed
I had already, and that's all the information I got; and it's all that I need, since I'm surely already starting late.
4:11:53
beach
I guess that's not quite true. Some people learn, but then they retire and others, who have not yet learned, take over.
4:13:14
no-defun-allowed
It's a bit concerning, going there to learn computer science, but the alternative is someone lecturing you for an hour on why one should use Oracle products. That's not a joke, that was in the database subject schedule.
4:13:56
beach
In the previous university? Wow! I am so grateful that French universities are not run for profit.
4:14:01
no-defun-allowed
Complete with misleading graphs and marketing information and all; but I can stop complaining, cause I withdrew already.
4:15:37
no-defun-allowed
It's something to do with "industry connections". They already get $6,000/year from me, and $12,000/year from the government or so for teaching me, surely that'd be enough.
4:17:50
beach
To cover cost, perhaps. I haven't done the math. But to get a reasonable return on investment for shareholders, I don't know.
4:18:09
no-defun-allowed
The latter figure is more like $30,000, if it's the difference between domestic and international fees. That's the best estimate I can think of.
4:33:56
beach
I am very glad I did my undergraduate studies in Sweden. Enrollment was free, and still is for all EU citizens. Every student gets a package with combined gift and loan from the government, and at the time, that money was enough to cover food and room.
4:34:00
beach
It may still be, but I don't know. The loan was very reasonable (2% interest at a time when inflation was 10%) to be paid back until the age of 50.
4:34:04
beach
Student housing was run by the city. Rooms had individual showers and toilets, and they were grouped in 8 with shared kitchen and living room. So it became a real family.
4:34:05
beach
We bicycled together to the university in the morning at 8 most days. We often had meals together during the weekend. We often went hiking and other activities together.
5:26:47
splittist
ACTION doesn't see why the poor, suffering taxpayers of NZ had to pay for the university education of his middle-class self rather than more worthy things, but decides not to mention it
5:59:22
beach
So, here is the (in my opinion sane) idea of Sweden. When you go to the university, you are a young adult. You are adult, so your parents' situation should not influence yours. You are young, so you haven't had time to build a fortune yet.
5:59:33
beach
Therefore, you must get help from the government. The French get it wrong. The income of the parents counts. But, what if you don't want to take your parents' money? What if your parents don't want to give you theirs?
5:59:41
beach
What if you are a foreign student and your parent's income can not be easily established? This forces many students to work half time, thereby taking twice as long to finish their studies, or they get kicked out for taking too long.
5:59:42
beach
So the French complicate the system by giving special treatment to students who have to work. But then, if you are a foreign student, you don't have a work permit, so you work illegally. So then you can't get a letter from your employer that you have a job. So then you study half time, but are treated as full time. So you get kicked out.
6:05:49
beach
I started my PhD when I was 28, and that was a great advantage. I then had 3 years of industry experience, and I had done my military service.
6:08:28
no-defun-allowed
The "optimum" is that age here, because your parents get upset with you if you take a break (a "gap year" or similar), and 2020 was a pretty bad choice for taking a holiday year.
6:09:38
beach
I suspect that, when I was that age, in Sweden, we were more independent of our parents than most people the same age in other countries and in other periods in time.
6:10:59
splittist
We used to giggle at the Mature Students (as they were called) bringing their life experience to bear in discussions about things like 'justice' and 'power' when the important thing was to "engage with" (i.e. regurgitate the teacher's preferred interpretations of) the Source Material.
6:12:27
no-defun-allowed
Well, we get loans for the other $6,000/year, which have an interest rate that matches inflation. And you only pay it off when you start working, so it could be worse.
6:13:18
splittist
When my father went to law school you were still expected to wear a jacket and tie to lectures. But then, you were also working part-time as a law clerk, so the spirit of '68 was probably of little interest.
6:13:55
splittist
I guess that left the university free to teach the important stuff (what is justice) rather than the operational stuff (how to be a lawyer).
6:14:05
no-defun-allowed
And we're then paid around $250/fortnight if financially dependent, and some more if independent. But for "reasons" I may remain dependent for a while, so I do sometimes have to give a rat's ass about my parents' boring thoughts.
6:14:25
splittist
How industry has sucked the world into thinking 'society' should pay for training their workers astonishes me.
6:15:29
beach
So the French got that aspect right. We have no pressure whatsoever to teach what industry wants.
6:17:36
beach
That, I think is sane. We try to teach stuff that will make society as a whole more productive (i.e., waste less energy, fewer resources, etc.) over time.
6:18:23
beach
But, of course, given the incompetence of most university teachers, that goal is hard to achieve. It is easy for an ignorant individual teacher to look to industry for ideas.
6:19:47
beach
But I can assure you that, when I was in charge of the undergraduate program, that was what we did.
6:22:38
beach
When that was the case, I could speak with some authority, since I was one of the few people with experience from four countries on three continents.
6:23:31
beach
... and experience from both academia and industry, both as a developer and as a manager.