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8:37:41
splittist
I was struck by this line (from a book I haven't read) on a topic that is often touched on here: "We write ethically when, as a matter of principle, we would trade places with our intended readers and experience the consequences they do after they read our writing."
8:42:42
splittist
The consequences I am experiencing from reading code I wrote 12+ months ago are alternating feelings of "I was so smart back then" and "How could I have been so dumb"...
9:25:44
heisig
Its snowing outside, and several people at my work have chosen Common Lisp for solving this year's adventofcode programming challenge.
9:26:41
beach
Oh, that's great news, about Common Lisp, that is. Not so much about the snow. I had my dose the first 28 years of my life.
9:30:25
beach
A bit there, but especially in Västerås where I lived the last 3 years of my time in Sweden.
9:43:35
phoe
mostly because they have a proposal introducing exception handling into WebAssembly that maps in like 10% to how Common Lisp does non-local control flow
9:44:37
phoe
so I will need to play the unfortunate role of an ultimate newcomer whose first real contribution is "uhh guys I think you're doing it wrong"
9:47:21
heisig
Sounds good. But you should try not to annoy people, but to engage in a constructive discussion. So maybe no actual flipping of the table :)
9:47:38
scymtym
make sure to change your avatar to https://catonmat.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/john-mccarthy-programming-wrong.jpg
9:48:14
phoe
I hope that in that block of text I make some constructive points that are not too hostile
9:48:33
frodef
Seems to me exception handling is a crucial element of software systems, and where CL excels.
9:49:19
beach
frodef: The point that phoe is making is that all that can be implemented with the right control-flow primitives.
9:49:57
frodef
beach: of course, it's not magic, anything can be implemented with the right primitives :)
9:50:33
beach
OK, so the point is that it is way better to have a few simple primitives (as Common Lisp does) than a complicated mechanism that can not be used for anything else.
9:50:46
frodef
phoe: not entirely sure I know "the C++/Java/Python sense" enough to understand your point exactly.
9:52:55
beach
We are still using Unix-like operating systems, despite the fact that we knew how to do it better 50 years ago.
9:52:59
frodef
just a few days ago I installed eclipse and tried some java. Right away I got the boilerplate try .. finally stuff to deal with statically checked exception handling. It's so sad.
9:53:48
beach
We are still programming as if we have access to the bare machine, with all the problems that implies, like silly linker technology, silly shared libraries, security problems, etc.
9:56:38
frodef
right, where a "process" pretty much simulates a bare machine, because that was what you needed to share resources in the 70s.
10:00:12
beach
phoe: I hope you succeed. If so, that would be some major progress, not just for Common Lisp, but for other languages as well.
10:01:31
beach
phoe: Speaking of which, the problems that Clasp face by using C++ exceptions as the mechanism for unwinding the stack are significant.
10:02:04
heisig
phoe: I also hope you succeed. You should emphasize that plain THROW has almost zero potential for being improved upon in the future.
10:03:12
phoe
heisig: could someone from the Clasp team support me with that? Like, make a writeup of these issues that I can then refer to?
10:08:49
splittist
phoe: this sentence seems to be missing some words towards the end: "Various programming languages implement the above semantics in varying ways and not all of them."
10:15:43
beach
It is the fact that, in order to implement Common Lisp unwinding, the only mechanism in LLVM is C++ exceptions.
10:16:19
beach
It sounds like the problem is that C++ does unwinds and that they need to handle those in Common Lisp.
10:21:20
beach
And now there is a "that" missing or you need to start the phrase with something other than "faces".
10:24:37
beach
English is better written with short-ish sentences. My French colleagues use the French style of long phrases when they write in English, and it quickly becomes incomprehensible.