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Tuesday, 24th of November 2020, 3:05:16 UTC
4:05:02
beach
Good morning everyone!
4:07:14
beach
phoe: Early for you! What's up?
4:07:24
phoe
well, my old personal statement still holds true; I can only properly wish you good morning if I don't sleep during the night
4:10:10
phoe
no, been a good and plentiful night
4:10:18
phoe
been busy earning the achievement of being proclaimed the biggest threat to the Common Lisp community right now
4:10:41
beach
Er, what? What happened?
4:11:18
phoe
https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/1331080126860234752
4:11:45
phoe
I guess that I annoyed him a wee bit too much with my posts at https://github.com/cl-library-docs/common-lisp-libraries/issues/3
4:11:54
phoe
I guess it was the last one, especially
4:13:14
beach
phoe: I am sorry you got into an argument with that guy.
4:14:07
phoe
beach: no worries. I am glad that I was able to spend some time and compile some publicly available data on him that will hopefully help keep the Lisp community a better place in the future.
4:14:44
beach
It's good you see it that way.
4:15:01
phoe
and the best news is that neither Xach nor lispm hold the position of the #1 Lisp baddie anymore!
4:37:15
mfiano
I still hold the record for longest grudge held against. Only recently as yesterday have I seen him mention me. Serious psychological issues over there.
5:08:06
dbotton
oh my dear... that was intense...
5:08:26
phoe
dbotton: you just read through all of it!?
5:09:29
dbotton
most of it.. he repeats himself alot
5:09:44
janis
barely ever been on irc
5:10:00
phoe
janis: well then welcome to #lisp, a place where Common Lisp programmers hang out
5:10:14
janis
i think im gonna try this more often bc i found out emacs has a built in irc client LOL
5:10:36
janis
so you can expect to see me somewhat frequently soon
5:10:40
phoe
you might want to visit #lispcafe if you feel like having some general random/offtopic chat with lispers
5:10:48
phoe
or #clschool if you want to learn Common Lisp
5:12:21
Bike
i'm amazed you have the patience for this github argument
5:12:24
phoe
also just feel free to hang around and tune in to general #lisp discussion about Common Lisp the language
5:12:54
phoe
Bike: I actually decided to have it
5:13:11
phoe
I think I'm the first person who actually managed to out-speak him
5:14:57
Bike
i envy their internet experience if the craziest thing anyone has ever said to them on the internet was that they're not good at lisp
5:15:38
Bike
well, i shouldn't gossip too much i guess, sorry
5:15:45
phoe
in my case it's just a combination of patience, persistence, data scraping and a decision to allocate some time to solve this issue with his aggression once and for all.
5:15:57
phoe
but, yes, right - I've cooled down a bit, too
5:16:05
phoe
back to standard #lisp content
5:16:31
Bike
so the reason this arrows thing would need a code walker is just to distinguish whether a form has <> in it, right?
5:16:47
phoe
this is the only reason
5:17:29
phoe
because otherwise it cannot easily tell apart (list (list (list '<>))) from (list (list (list <>)))
5:19:20
Bike
and the reason that matters is because if there's no <> then it's implicitly the first argument to the next form, right... odd stuff
8:26:11
jackdaniel
ACTION puts down the bowl with popcorn and closes the issue #3 on github. all you said phoe is something I agree with :)
8:30:26
phoe
jackdaniel: was the popcorn tasty
8:31:27
jackdaniel
actually it was a donut (and it was tasty), but popcorn seems to be a "figure of speech"
8:48:37
phantomics
I could use a jackdaniel after reading that comment thread
8:49:16
phoe
you mean you need a lisp programmer skilled in ECL, CLIM, and C?
8:49:36
jackdaniel
I'm sure I have some proficiency in Common Lisp too ,-)
8:50:08
phoe
jackdaniel: that's the part I meant by "lisp programmer"
8:50:13
phantomics
phoe I dunno how common Jack Daniel's is in Europe
8:50:16
phoe
imode: ask about the comment thread?
8:50:25
phoe
phantomics: yes, jackdaniel is in Europe
8:50:35
jackdaniel
phoe: you may get it in a store without an issue
8:50:53
jackdaniel
however hypocratic that sounds, I prefer scotch ^_^ sorry for the offtopic
8:51:00
phoe
imode: https://github.com/cl-library-docs/common-lisp-libraries/issues/3 - wear a hazmat suit before entering.
8:51:42
phantomics
Have a bottle of something hard ready for afterward
8:52:43
ldb
in general i don't like arrow, bcs i'd choose another language for doing functional style programming
8:53:01
phoe
holy cow I wish this issue was about discussing arrows
8:53:23
imode
this guy has mental illness.
8:53:32
phantomics
It's something I'd use in limited circumstances
8:53:50
fiddlerwoaroof
I thought that too
8:54:00
phantomics
"dangerously intellectually honest and ethical"
8:54:01
fiddlerwoaroof
They grow on you (when writing Clojure, at least)
8:54:03
imode
"It's just a meme. Chill out." oh my god.
8:54:34
imode
judging from this dude's twitter bio he is a fuck. treat him as one.
8:55:13
ldb
won't judge a book by its cover
8:55:49
phoe
ldb: well, this github issue has some pages.
8:56:12
phantomics
There's plenty of writing available from him
8:58:00
ldb
phoe: oh, i see you made a long post
8:58:11
phoe
don't worry, keep scrolling
8:58:36
ldb
\me reading from backwards
9:04:10
ldb
now I see "It's just a meme. Chill out." part
9:06:08
jackdaniel
OK, frauds and drama aside, lisp lisp lisp (pun at the phrase "team team team" from the it crowd franchise)
9:07:33
phoe
yeah, let's talk about arrow macros
9:07:58
phoe
i wrote a tutorial about those recently, has anyone perhaps read it
9:09:10
ck_
It's good. Thank you phoe.
9:10:25
phantomics
Where's the tutorial?
9:11:44
phoe
https://github.com/phoe/binding-arrows/blob/main/doc/TUTORIAL.md
9:12:57
ldb
I think I'd headache if I recived a peice of code from 30 years ago with "idioms" been used everywhere and has to reverse engineering what's going on there
9:14:00
ck_
isn't that what DSLs are?
9:14:31
phoe
they kinda are; that's why LOOP tends to get some hate now and then
9:15:55
phoe
jackdaniel: what does this form evaluate to?
9:16:14
jackdaniel
beats me, I've never worked with arrows
9:16:28
phoe
weird, on my implementation I get :SALMON
9:16:30
jackdaniel
but it looks nice, symbolic fish is converted to a symbol
9:16:39
phoe
i wonder if that's clojure-compatible
9:17:16
no-defun-allowed
(>~<o> oOo) ; the fish-tank arrow
9:18:03
phantomics
Does the (baz) need to be in parentheses?
9:18:10
no-defun-allowed
...is something you should put on a paste, yes.
9:18:33
no-defun-allowed
To my knowledge, no. But you should know it's doable.
9:18:35
imode
arrow macros are neat. though I'm biased because I like concatenative langs.
9:19:15
phantomics
It's just 4 lines, I understand quux needs parens because it has arguments after the first implicit one
9:19:17
phoe
phantomics: no. symbols are implicitly converted to lists.
9:19:29
phoe
phantomics: (-> foo bar baz) === (-> foo (bar) (baz))
9:19:31
phantomics
That's what I thought
9:20:04
phoe
this is to be able to provide function names to the arrow macro, which is kinda convenient
9:20:10
phoe
Clojurists often use this
9:22:11
ck_
Here is some helpful code that subsumes many uses https://github.com/randomcorp/thread-first-thread-last-backwards-question-mark-as-arrow-cond-arrow-bang
9:22:58
ck_
(if you have some time, watch the linked talk, it is good fun)
9:23:04
no-defun-allowed
Try to cd to that directory without tab completion.
9:23:07
fiddlerwoaroof
I found that, in Clojure, you generally want to stick to just -> and ->>
9:23:20
fiddlerwoaroof
The fancy ones turn into a mess quickly
9:23:45
phantomics
no-defun-allowed use asterisks old-school style
12:12:26
ldb
I got the LCF ML from Nuprl3 running correctly independently. Now I can start develop my own ML dialect on this.
12:14:27
no-defun-allowed
The first ML implementation was written in Lisp; I don't know if it is that one though.
12:14:30
ldb
it runs inside Common Lisp and can call lisp functions transparently.
12:14:52
ldb
no-defun-allowed: it has code from that one
12:16:07
ldb
but also has some code from Caml compiler
12:22:40
lotuseater
the first ML seems from 1973
14:47:41
pfdietz
It's interesting that the ML page on Wikipedia does not mention the connection to LCF (which I knew about, having been at Cornell around that time.)
14:49:22
loke[m]
phoe: why do I get the impression that our favourite troll is a CL version of Xah?
14:51:36
easye
Ah, Xah. He was more entertaining.
14:52:49
lotuseater
and how did he troll here?
14:53:07
edgar-rft
pfdietz: that's because Wikipedia articles are written by experts :-)
14:53:19
loke[m]
lotuseater: I was just followin gup on a discussion we've had on Mastodon today.
14:54:21
loke[m]
easye: Xah is actually much more productive than hs. What he produces is not great, but at least he does something.
14:55:19
epony
edgar-rft, don't spread misinformation
14:55:24
pfdietz
I am old school, and remember Eric Naggum.
14:56:02
easye
pfdietz: When were you in Ithaca? I was undergrad 1987-1992ish.
14:56:30
pfdietz
I was elsewhere by then.
14:56:44
loke[m]
pfdietz: I wasn't part of the CL community at that time. I've read some of his rants though.
14:57:15
edgar-rft
Wikipedia is a good thing and I already have learned lots from it, but it's not a replacement for a good teacher.
14:57:36
easye
edgar-rft: unless one has no other possible teacher.
14:57:49
_death
wikipedia is good for its external links mostly ;)
14:58:01
pfdietz
Dead links are good? :)
14:59:14
pfdietz
Hmm. I hope archive.org deliberately scans wikipedia for links to archive.
15:00:30
edgar-rft
easye: your argument repeats what I said :-)
15:02:20
pfdietz
Eric's style is understandable when you realize he was suffering from ulcerative colitis for 15 years before it finally killed him at age 44.
Tuesday, 24th of November 2020, 15:05:16 UTC