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17:40:16
fwoaroof[m]
https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5 maybe too, it's embedding strategy seems more stable to me than attempts to FFI
17:43:10
fwoaroof[m]
There's some valiant efforts to maintain GUI toolkits in the various programming language communities, but there's little money or thanks in that effort
17:45:46
fwoaroof[m]
And the big toolkits that do exist (Cocoa, Gtk, QT, Flutter) are actively hostile to using non-approved languages
17:46:08
ferada
well i'd wish to have more resources to dedicate to native ui, but time's limited isn't it
17:46:39
fwoaroof[m]
(I believe the Gtk developers, for example, explicitly have said something like "we don't care about non-Gnome use cases"
18:04:32
luna_is_here
Yeah... It is the decline of the desktop application. 10 years ago every language had bindings to all major GUI toolkits.
18:05:07
luna_is_here
The good news is: People are now used to Web-Apps and do not care soooo much about native apps anymore.
18:06:30
jackdaniel
it is not good news that you need a program bigger than your operating system (resource-wise) to run an hello world application
18:07:59
luna_is_here
Thus, having a modern theme for McCLIM might get you 95% of the way of a modern GUI in lisp, IMHO.
18:10:17
jackdaniel
it is not about electron, I'm more concerned that my computer which is many times faster than my computer in 2000 feels actually slower ^_^
18:10:18
fwoaroof[m]
I got a lot of compliments about a CAPI app I wrote on the side for some stuff at work
18:10:45
fwoaroof[m]
Out of the box, native apps on a Mac look good and work mostly as users expect them too
18:14:15
luna_is_here
Depends on the expectations... I usually find MacOS apps quite ill-behaving. But, that is a matter of taste, I guess.
18:16:25
luna_is_here
I know. But there is also a certain consistency between web-apps and people these days are used to that.
18:17:12
luna_is_here
Anyways, I know what you mean. I also prefer applications that are well integrated into my desktop.
18:19:00
luna_is_here
The question, however, is. Is it worth the extra effort, for example, for a language community to maintain bindings to all native GUIs and maybe a cross-platfrom toolkit on top.
18:24:31
luna_is_here
That they ask for any GUI toolkit does not mean that they care for a native one.
18:25:27
luna_is_here
And that this question pops up so frequently, probably means that there is currently no satisfying answer in all of these languages.
18:25:28
fwoaroof[m]
Depends on what you mean by "native", but they often explicitly don't want a web frontend
18:26:22
jasom
11:05:07 luna_is_here | The good news is: People are now used to Web-Apps and do not care soooo much about native apps anymore.
18:27:33
Xach
hmm, I didn't know about Integrated Inference Machines - http://pt.withington.org/publications/LispM.pdf
18:28:16
luna_is_here
[19:58:55] <luna_is_here> Thus, having a modern theme for McCLIM might get you 95% of the way of a modern GUI in lisp, IMHO.
18:29:15
jasom
you also need it to work on something other than X11 though; last I checked McCLIM didn't have a great story there.
18:30:24
Xach
anyway, i stumbled across that because P.T. Withington worked for Laszlo Systems, and they had a GUI system designed around declarative constraints that I always found very interesting, but it petered out in the market.
18:30:43
Xach
and i can remember "P.T. Withington" but not "OpenLaszlo" the product, so looking it up is always an adventure...
18:45:19
luna_is_here
The arrangement of a set of native widgets might look good on one platform, while the same arrangement can look terribel on another.
18:46:19
fwoaroof[m]
Yeah, that's hard to avoid, though: you basically just have to separate view/logic and pick the view based on the platform
18:51:53
jasom
separating view from logic can become complicated what happens when you hit the "up" arrow on a spinner that has a logical maximum value? Is the maximum value told to the view by the logic, or does the logic intercept the "up" event and decline to increment? Different GUI toolkits may prefer one way over the other
18:53:14
luna_is_here
Now it depends on your audience, whether the audience cares for a native app. ;)
18:53:32
fwoaroof[m]
But, there isn't really a good option here: electron/OpenGL GUIs just look wrong and often break OS features, multiple frontends is a maintenance burden and picking a platform restricts your audience
18:54:19
fwoaroof[m]
But, I'd pay LispWorks for access to a CI environment for building my apps for distribution on Linux/Windows
18:56:03
jasom
I don't currently own a mac, but when I did, ltk made "not terrible" apps and tk was pre-installed on macs. Not sure if either/both of those are true anymore. Now that multiplatform implies at least iOS, I'm not certain there is any CL solution for GUIs anymore.
23:38:36
Bike
markasoftware: they can have the same name, but the symbol in the environment can only refer to one class, i.e. find-class returns only one thing.
0:03:50
jasom
right you could do (setf class-name) to change the name of one class to be the same as another.
0:09:28
jasom
The main takeaway is that the following does not necessarily hold (eq X (class-name (find-class X)))
0:23:40
Bike
the clhs uses "proper name" to mean a class's name if the environment has that class under that name as well
4:05:45
buoy49
I am programmer based out of Texas. Mostly worked with Java and Ruby since I started 4 years ago. Have dabbled with a few other langs, but have been using lisp lately. I am looking for a new experience and want to have "more fun" programming. Lisp has been proving to be just that.
4:07:31
beach
I spent a year in Texas, at the University of Texas, Austin, learning about automatic memory management from Paul Wilson, the world expert at the time.
4:09:53
buoy49
beach: wow, very good. I am in ATX, actually. I am originally from NY, but I came down here and met my wife second day and the rest is history (2 daughters, mortgage, etc.)
4:11:58
u0_a156
Did you know that a regular here is working on https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
4:13:28
aeth
beach: But there's more! There's even something called CLOSOS that you are also planning!
4:14:05
u0_a156
i actually don't even understand lisp runtine systens... how the debugger works etc.
4:14:59
aeth
The rest of the runtime is pretty simple. REPL, from the naive (loop (print (eval (read)))) implementation of one
4:15:05
White_Flame
it all comes down at some point to mapping the hardware to lisp, then once it's in lisp, bob's your uncle. That interface with the machine is going to be the most fiddly part
4:15:38
aeth
u0_a156: Unfortunately, a real publisher picked it up. https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/hrjzs8/the_common_lisp_condition_system_apress_teaser/
4:17:08
aeth
Too bad I don't see a book+ebook bundle as an option there. I got that for Common Lisp Recipes off of Apress's website.
4:18:06
buoy49
beach: emacs w/ sly & just assorted docs (most CL Cookbook & CL Quick Reference). I am definitely interested in something more formally introductory if you have recs
4:19:10
beach
buoy49: Tools look good. Most people here recommend PCL for people who already know some programming.
4:19:18
minion
buoy49: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
4:29:44
buoy49
beach: thank you. ah, yes. the gigamonkeys book... is actually PCL. This pops up quite a bit on search for different syntax related searches. I did not realize what it was!
4:32:16
miyuki1534
When I was starting with Lisp, I use Paul Graham's Anci Common Lisp. You may want to read that as well since I think it moves at a faster pace