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15:00:17
dtw
It seems that the current stable Debian 9 system has only two CL implementations: SBCL and GCL. Is it just that there are no Debian maintainers for other implementations or does this also tell something about CL upstream development?
15:08:16
edgar-rft
dtw: According to my experience no linux distribution has well maintained CL packages. Linux package systems usually are designed for a C-like infrastructure and are not really suited for Lisp distribution.
15:11:49
dtw
This may affect software distribution. It's easier to tell users of my software to "apt install sbcl" and type "make" than to tell "compile this Lisp implementation first" and then compile my software.
15:11:59
cage_
dtw, in my limited experience with linux distribution Debian has a, relative, good CL team, SBCL is upgraded quickly on sid
15:12:17
dtw
I used to compile SBCL myself but nowadays I have updated it with my Debian (every two years).
15:15:24
loke
dtw: The debian CL libraries are a mess. Old, unsupported and doesn't work with modern software.
15:16:42
cage_
i use quicklisp for libraries but never felt the need to compile sbcl (but, i am on debian testing)
16:29:27
dim
loke: that's the general situation yes, but I've expanded some efforts into fixing that with my ql-to-deb tool and took care of the 60+ indirect dependencies for pgloader
16:30:12
dim
see https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb and https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=dim@tapoueh.org ; I'm not so active anymore on the debian front, mostly that's svillemot and Myon doing the work now
16:30:41
dim
loke: yeah that's what I do, and then I have pgloader distributed in debian itself, so I had to make it compliant with the debian contract
16:31:15
dim
any software shipped in debian must be buildable from sources all distributed in debian too
16:31:38
dim
I like this guarantee that debian gives its users, and decided to make it happen for pgloader
16:31:41
loke
ah, sure. But that doesn't mean that those external deps have to be actual debian packages
16:32:02
loke
I guess they can be _build_ dependencies, but they shouldn't be something users have to install.
16:32:40
loke
because the existence of those packages is such a nightmare. I've lost count of the time sI've explained to newcomers that they have to get rid of the borken Debian CL library packages.
16:32:45
dim
for the RPM builds, I'm also providing a source tarball that's built with the Quicklisp bundle facility, making it easier and a single source package
16:33:40
dim
ql-to-deb allows to easily grab what's in Quicklisp and update the debian package with that, so that it should be easy enough to update them monthly
16:33:51
loke
perhaps make a single "quicklisp-build-deps" package that is used during build, but an never be directly installed by a user.
16:34:33
dim
some debian users want to install debian packages for their CL libs, I've met some either on IRC or at ELS, but I would not do that either
16:36:14
loke
dim: yes. I'm not saying they don't exist. But I wouldn't be surprised if the number of users who have had problems with it greatly exceeds the number of user who actually want it.
16:36:50
dim
at least I tried to help, I would still use QL for a CL development environment even on debian
20:43:17
svillemot
unfortunately, CCL can not be packaged because for its FFI it basically depends on a obsolete GCC version
20:44:08
svillemot
loke: I confirm that Debian packages for CL libraries are build-dependencies of pgloader, but need not be installed by the end user
20:46:26
svillemot
I'm aware that those packages for CL libraries are not the right fit for many developers, but at least permit having pgloader in Debian
20:47:07
svillemot
recently I have also improved their quality by integrating their testsuites into the CI engine of Debian (i.e. they are tested automatically against SBCL, ECL and sometimes CLISP)
20:49:25
svillemot
e.g. for alexandria: https://ci.debian.net/data/autopkgtest/unstable/amd64/c/cl-alexandria/2000450/log.gz
21:38:32
pjb
(let ((v (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 5 :initial-element 0)) (a (make-array '(2 2 3) :initial-element 0))) (list (list (length v) (fill-pointer v) (array-total-size v) (array-dimension v 0) (array-dimensions v)) (list (array-total-size a) (array-dimension a 0) (array-dimensions a)))) #| --> ((5 5 10 10 (10)) (12 2 (2 2 3))) |#
0:59:03
python476
I'm reading norvig PAIP, I was curious if there are books of this kind (broadly) written since ?
1:02:13
antoszka
python476: I don't think there's anything exactly like PAIP (with that quality Common Lisp course)
1:10:12
no-defun-allowed
i know of a few research projects in CL being undertaken now, SICL is a CL implementation and Petalisp is a high performance matrix math computing library, and a lot of research in AI and high level languages has been done in Lisps
1:25:28
dmiles
after PAIP i suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Daydreaming-Humans-Machines-Computer-Thought/dp/1478137266
1:28:25
dmiles
also if people are interested in use Lisp of AGI there is my project that is inteded to untoyify PAIP https://github.com/TeamSPoon/CYC_JRTL_with_CommonLisp