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7:47:59
schweers
As we have quite a few people here who don’t speak english as a native language ... what do you folks make of Eric Raymond’s advice for would-be hackers to learn proper english?
7:48:25
zigpaw
so everyone will have to re-buy the print version to have the latest standard version with 'mammoth shit' included? sounds like a plan ;)
7:50:17
clhsgang[m]
anyways i think people should analyse people like esr's and graham's code, not personal beliefs
7:52:04
beach
schweers: I have been in many meetings where English was spoken but where many participants did not master it. It was interesting to observe how the people mastering the language more frequently got their opinions voted on.
7:52:45
schweers
beach: what exactly do you mean by “voted on”? They got more feedback and the like?
7:54:52
schweers
Not surprising. I am guity of zoning off when I have to listen to someone who does not speak the language somewhat competently.
7:55:34
schweers
So I guess that the ideas of those who did not master the language were simply not will understood by the audience.
7:56:00
schweers
Note that I don’t want to blame anyone for not speaking english. I tried to learn french in school and failed miserably.
7:56:20
beach
schweers: It was also that they were too shy to protest because they couldn't express the objections very well.
7:56:21
Shinmera
schweers: It's not about language, just about how competent people appear. If someone speaks fluently they appear more competent. There's other factors to this too of course.
7:56:40
shrdlu68
For the average Random J. D'vloper, one of the first things they picture when someone mentions Lisp is immense age. What good is an antediluvian language? Surely the newer languages were invented for a reason?
7:57:17
loke
schweers: Still, I'd have thought that the behaviour you descibed would be more common in people who only speak one language.
7:57:34
schweers
loke: my point is actually: I shy away from telling people they must learn a language, because I failed at doing so myself.
7:59:55
schweers
loke: at first glance he seems to be gun nut, which so does not resonate with me (I hope I’m not starting any flamewars here)
7:59:56
dim
there's only one way to get good at anything and that's practice. so if you want to help people to speak a new language, well, the best you can do is offer them more practice opportunities, and that means listening to them, not speaking to them.
8:02:48
varjag
schweers: esr is quite right wing, so many feel justified to ignore his personal opinions on hacker culture
8:04:15
dim
the question I keep reading about esr and code is: how much did he actually write himself? but again, that's stearing away from our topic
8:05:09
zigpaw
depends on what you mean by IoT, as this buzzword is quite encompassing (ie a laptop can be considered an IoT device).
8:07:02
zigpaw
IoT is considered much more than embedded I think. You even have cloud for IoT sold, and many other "products" that are clearly not embedded goes into this bag.
9:24:05
schweers
I’m reading AMOP chapter 5 and in the section on methods it says that a method contains a generic function, /if/ the method is associated with a generic function. It further states, that a method can be associated with at most one generic function at a time. My question is this: how can a method /not/ be associated with a generic function?
9:25:35
beach
schweers: If you just create the method using MAKE-INSTANCE it will not be associated with any generic function.
9:26:26
schweers
does it make senst to have a method not associated with a gf, unless one is about to associate it?
9:32:18
v0|d
beach: do you have something in writing that talks about std-class bein a std-class, what do they call it in GHC, rankN types?
9:37:55
no-defun-allowed
it's a very buggy body to say the least. someone compiled it with (DECLARE (Y-CHROMOSOME T)) and now i have to put up with it
9:38:04
jsjolen
Yeah, it's pretty typical to optimize for unsafety when drunk so that might be why you had wrap-around issues
9:44:04
no-defun-allowed
unfortunately estradiol isn't in the quicklisp packages so i'll have to find it somewhere else
9:51:34
beach
v0|d: This picture is derived from information in the AMOP book: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png
9:51:53
phoe
I mean, technically, you can create a method object, equip it with some function, then call that method directly without calling any generic function at all.
9:52:18
phoe
If your use case is unusual enough to involve such mechanisms, then it might be feasible for you.
9:52:28
beach
As you can see, the word STANDARD-CLASS is in red, meaning that it is an instance of STANDARD-CLASS (because the rectangle is drawn in red).
9:53:05
phoe
But unless you dive deep into CLOS/MOP internals and have enough knowledge to back you up in case you screw something up, the answer is, no, it doesn't make sense.
9:53:46
Shinmera
The point of the blurb is simply that it is possible for methods to exist without generic functions (because they need to be created first and then attached)
9:54:50
beach
v0|d: The color of the text determines the metaclass. If the color is green, the metaclass is built-in-class. If the color is blue, the metaclas is funcallable-standard-class. Etc.
10:03:16
v0|d
beach: Do you know a particular algorithm that employs this recursive type? (std-class)
10:05:25
beach
Well, it is more like this: Since every Common Lisp object is the instance of some class, unless you want infinitely many classes, there has to be a cycle somewhere in the graph.
10:12:17
phoe
with the smallest cycle being (typep (make-instance 'standard-object) 'standard-object) ;=> T
15:29:01
AeroNotix
I ran mezzano for like 10 seconds a few years ago. Clicked around, "huh cool" and never ran it again
15:33:11
random-nick
but you might have trouble getting it to connect to the network because Mezzano only supports a single ethernet card
15:37:13
random-nick
it doesn't have DHCP, TCP retransmit, ICMP (but it has enough of it to get ping to work), and it has only 1 network driver
15:38:00
random-nick
so only very simple networking things work and you have to manually configure the IP address
15:43:06
AeroNotix
It's funny really. I would have thought a Lisp OS would be the wet dream of every lisper but I haven't seen much interest in Mezzano unfortunately.
15:43:55
Shinmera
OSs are hard and only few people have the know-how and/or dedication to commit to it.
15:45:29
pjb
AeroNotix: wet dreams or not, during the day the tools I use are: emacs, firefox, bash, posix commands, git, gcc or clang and a bunch of C libraries. If Mezzano cannot support those programs, then I cannot use it, but in wet dreams.
15:45:31
AeroNotix
but there are many smart lispers in here that do have the skills to contribute, though obviously probably not the time
15:47:43
pjb
Unfortunately, long past are the days without the internet, where you could use your own little OS and write your own little programs (even for some customers). With the Internet, network effects have been much stronger, and this excludes for practical purposes all but the two or three main options.
16:45:03
jmercouris
the thing is, looking at the asd in the github, it depends on a large variety of systems
16:46:05
AeroNotix
perhaps Xach would know why this is available in the QL distro but not actually working
16:48:03
AeroNotix
jmercouris: put https://github.com/mmaul/clml.extras in local-projects and load clml.extras then clml
16:48:25
AeroNotix
at least it makes some more progress for me. It seems that clml.extras package is where the r-datasets package is located...
16:48:54
AeroNotix
Not got it loaded for me properly yet, though. I have some issues with sbcl and dynamic heap sizes apparently (???)
16:49:15
AeroNotix
"""""ring compilation with SBCL this system requires that the heap space be set to 2560 or greater. ~%This can be set by dynamic-space-size flag when starting sbcl. To resolve restart sbcl as follows:~%""""
16:53:23
AeroNotix
It originally had debian on it which had a package for the xorg/gpu drivers but my current distro doesn't.
16:53:24
jmercouris
maybe it would be easier to find a pci gpu and one of those 90 degree pci mounting brackets
16:53:39
AeroNotix
could be but then that would be effort. I just need a computer that works reasonably well right now
16:57:54
jmercouris
I'll probably have to change some swank config if I will work with this library at all
17:01:02
jmercouris
seems that this system SHOULD have been found: https://gist.github.com/6e6d59ea2acc97d3a88f4f67775f6bf8
18:53:02
AeroNotix
pjb: cool. I'm getting into it and would love to use CL for processing some of the data I get back.
19:21:01
Shinmera
AeroNotix: frgo who hangs out in #clasp sometimes does amateur radio stuff (possibly with lisp?), if I remember correctly