freenode/#lisp - IRC Chatlog
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2:43:23
p_l
aeth: we could search, but this is #lisp, the usual answer is "we didn't have mod on hand to update topic with new announcement"
4:25:16
Bike
here is clhs's description of do's syntax: " do ({var | (var [init-form [step-form]])}*) (end-test-form result-form*) declaration* {tag | statement}*"
4:52:29
aeth
Afaik, they're supposed to be interesting examples for implementers, not tutorial examples that build up to complexity.
4:57:34
pierpa
CLHS is good when one knows 99% of what he wants to know and wants to know the remaining 1%
5:00:39
pierpa
it's not uncommon that even very expert long-time implementor misunderstand some things in the CLHS, go figure *learners* of the language.
5:11:39
Zhivago
On the other hand, implementors have incentive to misunderstand things to conform with their long term preconceptions.
9:52:38
phoe
I poke my nose into code that I haven't touched for months and I can quickly remember how it works and edit it.
11:17:27
Xach
scymtym: it takes 1.5 times longer than 1.4.4. i am looking at individual project timings now.
11:19:19
scymtym_
Xach: interesting, thanks. could we continue this conversation in #sbcl so we won't have to repeat everything for the others?
13:04:59
dxtr
Possible stupid question: Has there been any community efforts to create a new, "cleaned up", lisp specification? Seeing as a lot of stuff is marked as "deprecated" and things like that
13:05:59
dxtr
I don't specifically mean to create a new "web 2.0 web-scale all-the-buzzwords" thing -- but rather to clean up the specification and rationalize things
13:06:08
jackdaniel
cdr is meant for extending standard for missing features: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/
13:06:47
jackdaniel
cl21 is an effort to add some syntactic sugar and remove deprecated features: http://cl21.org/
13:07:24
jackdaniel
ergolib is another project which provides more intelligible package: https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib
13:09:05
jackdaniel
eulisp is a language designed to provide modern Lisp somewhere between Scheme and CL
13:09:21
scymtym_
beach has a project aiming at producing a corrected and more precise but compatible specification for common lisp
13:10:06
jackdaniel
there are many compatibility layer projects which bring various implementations together: bordeaux-threads, closer-mop, trivial-gray-streams, usocket
13:22:26
milanj
I don't think it's safe to set/get in hash-map without lock (even if you are using (current-thread) as key)
13:26:16
Shinmera
It's unfortunate that it's not possible to write a wrapper library to provide portable thread-safe hash tables (without shadowing CL).
13:29:10
shka
but since BT does not offer atomic operations, such hashtable may have bizmo performance unless it uses atomics from SBCL directly
13:31:47
jackdaniel
ecl's safe hash tables do the same (uses locks), but if I had a shared ht between threads I'd carefully lock code blocks instead
13:42:08
beach
dxtr: This is my project for improving the Common Lisp specification: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp
13:51:06
beach
dxtr: It is not very ambitious, and I think the low ambition is required in order for it to have any chance of success.
13:59:02
shka
quote of the day -> "It is not very ambitious, and I think the low ambition is required in order for it to have any chance of success."
14:00:47
beach
shka: I maintain that. I think something like cl21 is way too ambitious. Same thing with efforts to include many more features.
14:04:28
beach
Yes, that's the idea. But already by specifying lots of unspecified behavior, it means many more programs can be portable across implementations.
14:05:22
beach
The next step (after this one) could be something like specifying the exact meaning of type declarations at different safety levels. But that is already too ambitious for the first step.
14:07:24
beach
But I maintain that the goal of WSCL is much higher priority than including more features or modifying the syntax.
14:09:24
jackdaniel
actually I believe Lisp could be better with some cruft removed (not necessarily added), but happily creating new package with limited set of symbols is not something what would require intervention on the implementaiton level (vide ergolib)
14:09:30
pjb
I would think it'd be better to use our own sexp-based structure. This would allow for a more formal approach to generate the standard.
14:10:14
pjb
It would also make it easier to write tools, such as to navigate cross references, (original paragraph), and to trace and reference things.
14:11:46
jackdaniel
well, most people know letters (probably all lispers!), let's use some syntax involving letters and they'll understand the semantics (promise)
14:11:48
pfdietz
The new feature I want to see become de facto standard in CL is package local nicknames.
14:12:35
jackdaniel
rme isn't against accepting pull request for it, so it is a matter of implementation
14:13:59
pfdietz
While poking through ccl, I noticed ccl has a very nice coverage facility included, with rollback. I hacked COVER to do that, but it's nice to have something integrated with the compiler.
14:24:15
jmercouris
I find it interesting, I hear people on IRC and I always try to imagine what they look like and what they speak like
14:24:37
jmercouris
I have these fuzzy images in my head for many people on this channel, as to how I imagine they are
14:24:51
beach
Type my name to the Google search engine and you will find out. It gives some Youtube videos of talks and such.
14:24:52
jmercouris
like when reading a book you come up with a face for a character, for me it is the same thing
14:27:22
dxtr
beach: To be fair if I google your name I get a whole lot of people with that name. 334 people to be precise :)
14:28:14
jackdaniel
ACTION also tries to figure out, what his accent/nationality has to do with lisp
14:28:36
jmercouris
It doesn't have to do with Lisp, but we are humans after all, and that is interesting
14:29:20
jackdaniel
jmercouris: of course, so asking such question once is fine, but having prolonged discussion about that is not. apparently he is not interested in such chit-chat, otherwise he would be there ;)