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Tuesday, 27th of February 2018, 1:29:46 UTC
2:01:04
stylewarning
pierpa: id like to find a way to recreate latex source
2:01:41
stylewarning
I’m the one who helped get copyright reverted, and it looks like elsevier might have lost the source
2:08:18
pierpa
but thank you for helping this!
2:08:52
pierpa
stylewarning: I suppose you already asked PN?
2:37:08
igemnace
my notifications...
2:39:20
Bike
i thought we had uh, +t or whatever it is.
2:39:48
Bike
oh well. racists desperate to find new means of advertising their crap.
2:42:51
aeth
can someone search the logs to see how the +t was removed?
2:43:00
aeth
I'm not sure if any of the log sites keeps track of modes
2:43:23
p_l
aeth: we could search, but this is #lisp, the usual answer is "we didn't have mod on hand to update topic with new announcement"
2:43:54
p_l
I wonder if I could get staff to K-line the idiot
2:49:08
stylewarning
pierpa: I’m the one who helped get copyright
3:41:51
pierpa
stylewarning: I meant, if you asked PN about the sources. He lost them too?
4:21:16
pierpa
ok, he says he lost them :(
4:21:55
k-hos
I should be able to return values from a do loop in cl right?
4:23:19
k-hos
I am doing something wrong then
4:23:38
k-hos
because that would just be whatever the last form in the loop returns wouldn't it
4:24:11
pierpa
loop loops, there's no last form
4:24:41
Bike
when you say "do loop", do you mean the macro actually called "do", or something else?
4:25:16
Bike
here is clhs's description of do's syntax: " do ({var | (var [init-form [step-form]])}*) (end-test-form result-form*) declaration* {tag | statement}*"
4:25:19
Bike
see the result-form bit there
4:26:23
k-hos
I was trying from the statement section
4:26:52
Bike
documentation is important
4:28:41
k-hos
clhs is farily incomprehensible half the time unless you know the language
4:29:02
Bike
and it's explaind in the prose also
4:29:31
k-hos
doesn't change anything
4:30:20
pierpa
however, learners shouldn't have to go to clhs, and shouldn't be directed to it.
4:51:47
aeth
CLHS is... well, it's great as a reference, except for the examples
4:51:54
aeth
The examples are terrible to learn
4:52:07
aeth
s/to learn/to learn from/
4:52:29
aeth
Afaik, they're supposed to be interesting examples for implementers, not tutorial examples that build up to complexity.
4:52:38
aeth
s/up to complexity/up in complexity/
4:55:15
stylewarning
pierpa: of course i asked
4:56:24
pierpa
stylewarning: ok, supposed so :(
4:57:34
pierpa
CLHS is good when one knows 99% of what he wants to know and wants to know the remaining 1%
4:58:48
pierpa
and even then, it's not easy.
5:00:39
pierpa
it's not uncommon that even very expert long-time implementor misunderstand some things in the CLHS, go figure *learners* of the language.
5:11:15
Bike
ii'm just sayin it 's right there in the grammar
5:11:23
Bike
says "result forms" not "statement forms and also the result"
5:11:31
Bike
ain't some bullshit point about type corresondence
5:11:39
Zhivago
On the other hand, implementors have incentive to misunderstand things to conform with their long term preconceptions.
5:22:14
pierpa
Bike: yes, in this case was easy. but it's not always so.
5:33:40
pierpa
Norvig just replaced the pdf with "a much better version"
6:08:43
beach
Good morning everyone!
9:51:01
phoe
I am still amazed by good modular code
9:51:15
phoe
How fun it is to edit parts of it and still break nothing.
9:51:42
phoe
Like I wrote some code that I consider modular and with well defined protocols.
9:51:56
phoe
And I just decided to reimplement one thing while keeping its interface.
9:52:09
phoe
Boom, worked without a single error.
9:52:38
phoe
I poke my nose into code that I haven't touched for months and I can quickly remember how it works and edit it.
10:47:59
milanj
varjag, dexador connection cache looks suspicious to me (threads wise)
11:12:55
dxtr
So what's the bordeaux-threads equivalent of sb-thread:with-mutex?
11:17:11
Xach
scymtym: so there is a significant slowdown in 1.4.5-prerelease
11:17:27
Xach
scymtym: it takes 1.5 times longer than 1.4.4. i am looking at individual project timings now.
11:19:19
scymtym_
Xach: interesting, thanks. could we continue this conversation in #sbcl so we won't have to repeat everything for the others?
13:04:59
dxtr
Possible stupid question: Has there been any community efforts to create a new, "cleaned up", lisp specification? Seeing as a lot of stuff is marked as "deprecated" and things like that
13:05:59
dxtr
I don't specifically mean to create a new "web 2.0 web-scale all-the-buzzwords" thing -- but rather to clean up the specification and rationalize things
13:06:08
jackdaniel
cdr is meant for extending standard for missing features: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/
13:06:47
jackdaniel
cl21 is an effort to add some syntactic sugar and remove deprecated features: http://cl21.org/
13:07:24
jackdaniel
ergolib is another project which provides more intelligible package: https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib
13:08:09
jackdaniel
rutils is similar with its goals: https://github.com/vseloved/rutils
13:08:48
jackdaniel
clojure is a language designed by a disappointed Common Lisper
13:09:05
jackdaniel
eulisp is a language designed to provide modern Lisp somewhere between Scheme and CL
13:09:21
scymtym_
beach has a project aiming at producing a corrected and more precise but compatible specification for common lisp
13:09:26
jackdaniel
racket is scheme descendant with many goodies
13:10:06
jackdaniel
there are many compatibility layer projects which bring various implementations together: bordeaux-threads, closer-mop, trivial-gray-streams, usocket
13:10:08
dxtr
Yeah I specifically meant common lisp
13:10:36
jackdaniel
there were probably more efforts aiming at the cleansing goals
13:15:37
varjag
milanj: haven't looked in the cache part
13:16:33
varjag
but i like how its error conditions are restartable
13:21:23
milanj
I needed http client with connection cache
13:22:26
milanj
I don't think it's safe to set/get in hash-map without lock (even if you are using (current-thread) as key)
13:23:34
Shinmera
It can be if the implementation provides you with a safe hash table.
13:26:16
Shinmera
It's unfortunate that it's not possible to write a wrapper library to provide portable thread-safe hash tables (without shadowing CL).
13:28:15
shka
well, you can always use non-standard hashtable instead..
13:29:10
shka
but since BT does not offer atomic operations, such hashtable may have bizmo performance unless it uses atomics from SBCL directly
Tuesday, 27th of February 2018, 13:29:46 UTC