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7:57:18
jackdaniel
license is useful when you traverse dependency tree and see, what is a combined work license
8:32:39
sigjuice
hey I was just checkout out Portacle a couple of hours ago. I noticed there were a couple of .git directories in the distribution. Is that intentional?
8:53:22
Shinmera
The basic idea is just to download the latest archive from github and automatically extract it over the existing installation.
8:53:38
Shinmera
Things get a bit complicated when you consider Windows though since you can't overwrite a running binary there, so
8:59:31
sigjuice
Updating binaries that are being used: this is something I never really understood. I have seen really weird inexplicable stuff even on Linux.
9:30:53
osune_
do i understand it correct that cl:decode-universal-time returns the timezone UTC offset inversed (multiplicated with -1)? E.g. I'm in UTC+1 , but the function returns -1 . If so, does somebody know the reasoning behind that? And while we are at it, what is the prefered / recommended calendar library for cl?
9:34:21
osune_
thx I took a look at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/25_ad.htm but missed to look at the glossary
9:36:31
osune_
Shinmera: but the glossary just states "that's how it is" , is there a known reason `why` that is? I mean it seems counter intuitive for the use cases I can think of.
9:39:17
Shinmera
There's nothing about the direction of the TZ value in the issues, so that's the best guess I have.
9:41:24
osune_
hm, I would lie saying that this is an answer that satisfies me. But I guess it has to. Thanks
9:44:00
Shinmera
Another way to look at it is that the TZ is the difference between local time and UTC.
9:47:15
osune_
I guess you can look at it that way, and maybe I didn't had enough exposure to TZ problems to appreciate it. But apart from your guess (inheritance) there seems no valid reason why one would choose to implement it that way, or at least expose this implementation detail it to the user
9:52:09
osune_
I mean: assuming that there is no benefit for solving specific problems by working with (- TZ), I assume that there are other reasons to use (- TZ) internaly. But as there are no specific problems which benefit from (- TZ) it doesn't make sense to expose this detail to the user. (decode-universal-time) could just return (- (- TZ)) and work with (- TZ) internal.
9:53:53
Shinmera
A lot of things in CL aren't there because that's what they thought was cool and great to have, but it's there because of the constraints under which CL was formed.
9:55:10
osune_
Shinmera: sure that's a valid reason, which I'm not arguing. That's why I said "I take it as an answer". But this just propagates the question to "why did one existing system initially choose to behave like that"
9:55:59
Shinmera
Either way, as I said, seeing the TZ as the difference between local time and UTC (thus being "inverted") seems like a reasonable way to do things to me.
10:07:06
osune_
Sure it is just that. But I was not aware that "East to UTC is negative" was ever a wide spread convention.
10:08:10
beach
Possibly. But it is possible that there didn't used to be a convention at all, so Lisp implementers had to pick one.
10:13:29
osune_
I'm reading up on the history of time zones atm and acording to wikipedia "By 1929, most major countries had adopted hourly time zones [with reference to GMT]. Nepal was the last country to adopt a standard offset , shifting slightly to UTC+5:45 in 1986" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone#Worldwide_time_zones Currently I'm looking through the different ISO standards for time zones and dates / time
10:16:17
beach
You might try to look at the Maclisp manual and see whether the convention was the same as in Common Lisp. If so, Shinmera is very likely right in that the Lisp function existed before the current convention was established.
10:19:23
osune_
beach: thanks i'll have a look. It seems the first standard regarding representation of local time differentials was ISO4031 from 1978 , which was superseeded in 1988 by ISO8601. Unfortunately I don't find a public version of ISO4031. So it seems Shinmera is right with his guess.
10:31:32
osune_
The MacLisp Reference Manual by Moon (1974) doesn't seem to even know about time zones :/
10:36:31
osune_
I have a friend searching for the ISO 4031 standard, maybe I'll find the "horrible" truth there :D
10:45:05
aeth
It's not just the negation, the actual timezone information itself is different iirc. ISO 8601 encodes DST directly in its UTC offset. CL can thus given a different UTC offest than Unix's (or is it just GNU's?) "date -Isecond"
10:46:54
Shinmera
I really hate the thing about changing TZs with the DST, so I prefer CL in that regard
10:54:21
osune_
Well no luck: my friend says the truth hidden in ISO 4031 is so horrible that he has no access via the university he is working at. I'm assuming it contains eldritch type horrors which are better left untouched.
10:55:06
aeth
Turns out that that conspiracy theory about someone just making up hundreds of years of history was true and is incoded in ISO 4031? Incredible!
11:25:34
osune_
aeth: wait a sec . You said "Its not just the negation". I didn't read ISO 8601 , but your sentence implies that there it is stated something like "as it is known, in the west of Greenwhich the offset is positive in the east it's negative. But for what ever reason we negate the offset". Or do I missunderstood ?
13:15:49
p_l
if someone has L-bus Symbolics in need of parts, there are boards for $200 on sale https://www.ebay.com/sch/71271.1417/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
13:44:29
eviltofu
So when I insert a (break) into my code, I run it; when the debugger shows up. I type print "var name"?
13:46:40
Shinmera
You can just hit return on the stack frame and it'll show you the lexical variables it knows about
13:47:03
Shinmera
ones it does not show won't be available anyway because they've been compiled away.
13:57:58
Shinmera
In other news, Colleen can now provide lookup similar to specbot for most of my libraries and projects.
13:58:16
Colleen
Function 3d-vectors:vunit https://shinmera.github.io/3d-vectors#FUNCTION%203D-VECTORS%3AVUNIT
13:58:52
Colleen
Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, say, roll, set, mop, get, reload, ramble, login, grant,
14:25:27
beach
eviltofu: When the execution stops because of the BREAK, you will see a window with one line for each currently active stack frame. If you put your cursor at the beginning of such a line and hit return, you should see the lexical variables that are still live.
14:25:58
beach
eviltofu: All that assumes that you compiled your program with a high value for DEBUG.
14:26:28
Shinmera
Or just the unit that you're breaking in. You can use C-u C-c C-c to compile a block with high debug.
14:29:40
Shinmera
You can also inspect the values by clicking on them or moving the cursor to them and hitting return
14:32:05
Shinmera
For values on the repl you can also easily inspect the last one with slime using M-x slime-inspect * RET
15:39:35
malice
Anyone knows drakma? Can I somehow check headers of the request sent by http-request? I'm interested in headers created when using cookies.