freenode/#lisp - IRC Chatlog
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0:34:39
nosefouratyou_
how do you escape a list? I have something like (:asdf 1 :boo 2) and I want :asdf 1 :boo 2
5:40:34
drmeister
It's a complex widget called 'nglview' running within Cando(Common Lisp) within a jupyter notebook.
5:46:53
drmeister
A reason to use it is if you have C++ libraries you want to drive from Common Lisp. Nobody has taken me up on that lately.
5:47:45
drmeister
I'm developing it as a computer aided molecular design environment. That requires a lot more than just Common Lisp - that's what I've been working on.
10:18:35
loke
The singapore one was really good too. I'll probbaly go to Europe and watch them again.
10:22:06
caffe
i'd also like to see jean-michel jarre someday, so i suppose europe would be necessary for making that happen anyway
10:22:53
loke
I travel to europe several times per year, and my travel time is twice as long as for the USians :-)
10:28:07
loke
That was a bit exhausting though, since I had to change flight as there were do direct flights at the time.
10:32:28
caffe
i might as well get this out of the way: i'm new to lisp. i'll try and stick to docs before asking for help here. i may inevitably ask a stupid question at some point, but i'll try and keep it to a minimum.
10:37:06
antoszka
caffe: This is really a Common Lisp channel, try the specific ones for other related languages.
10:47:34
axion
caffe: You should probably start with Practical Common Lisp if you haven't read it yet...it's free online.
10:51:22
caffe
so far, i've mostly been learning s-expression, and how to use the REPL as a calculator
10:52:01
antoszka
caffe: and I supposed most people here will suggest you stick to Common Lisp – treat elisp as a tool for configuring emacs, the dialect itself isn't very pretty.
10:52:51
caffe
yeah, i got the same impression... at first i was going to start with it, but most of its builtins(?) seem oriented towards text manipulation above all else
11:00:32
caffe
i've heard that lisp can behave either as a procedural language like c, or a functional language like haskell.. how does this work?
11:01:05
loke
caffe: It's multi paradigm. It provides imperative as well as functional facilities (and object orientation)
11:02:45
antoszka
caffe: It's just how you choose to use it. No, the object system (CLOS) is very much part of the language.
11:08:15
loke
caffe: Search for TAGBODY in this chapter of PCL: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/the-special-operators.html
11:09:41
antoszka
There's a nice article/rant on the presence of CLOS in CL by Naggum, but can't find it now.
11:09:53
antoszka
http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=clos+ ← somewhere in here, I suppose.
11:11:02
loke
I have to admit that I started out thinking that CLOS was complicated and just ignored it for a while. Then I realised just how wrong I was.
11:19:45
schweers
_death: did you mean that the book shows how simple CLOS is, or did you mean MOP itself?
11:20:36
antoszka
I've had amop for a while. Was wondering if the source code of Closette is floating around somewhere to tinker with.
11:20:42
_death
schweers: the former, although the MOP springs out naturally because of good design :)
11:23:25
schweers
as much as I’d like the contrary to be true: using CL to write a program doesn’t automatically make it 'smart'
11:24:09
_death
the other day I "reversed" ql-setup::dumb-string-hash.. the result was still dumb though
11:26:29
caffe
i mostly mean in what the language or programming environment has to offer... in assembly, for example; not much is really done for you. you have to do everything yourself. C is the same to some extent.
11:27:29
_death
caffe: the thing with lisp is that you can do both low level and high level stuff as needed
11:28:19
schweers
I finally tried out CFFI the other day just to poke around in an mmap()ed region and was amazed
11:28:57
antoszka
caffe: Common Lisp is nice about being able (but not having) to control the whole compiler right down almost to the metal. You can see the disassembly of your compiled functions right in the REPL.
11:29:42
caffe
the source is very easy to read, even if uncommented... you have the same sort of live interpreted enviroment... applesoft of course is just a lot more castrated. it's a nice break from the write-compile-test-edit grind
11:33:32
caffe
yeah, the REPL is the sort of thing i've wished i had in other languages; but hadn't really seen anything vaguely similar to, sort of basic interpreters
11:34:09
schweers
its because most languages are missing the parts that make up the REPL: read, eval and print
11:34:24
schweers
altough many languages have functions of those names, they do not do the same thing
11:35:09
antoszka
caffe: Actually the REPL is *more* than just an interactive environment (like Ruby's irb/pry is, or Python's python, or Tcl's tclsh).
11:35:42
antoszka
caffe: Once you get to know lisp better, you'll see the magic symmetry between READ and PRINT (and how it actually matters something in REPL).
11:36:15
antoszka
It's one of the things that are very non-obvious for non-lispers and make Lisp a Lisp.
11:37:43
antoszka
caffe: If you want to dive right into the symbols and the reader, there's a very nice paper, google for "complete idiot's guide to common lisp packages"
11:37:59
antoszka
And don't be put off by the title, this is one most enlightening lisp paper I've read :)
11:39:46
antoszka
You'll realise how *first class* the symbols (“words” used for the code) are in Lisps.
11:40:03
schweers
antoszka: I’ve never heard of that paper, I guess I’ve got something now on my todo list now ;)
11:41:38
schweers
antoszka: 14 pages is indeed not that long, especially not in that formatting, but it’s not done in 2 minutes
11:54:04
schweers
ah, not quite true, I remember a third offering which was a consulting job in a place I didn’t want to go
12:18:21
antoszka
Yeah, there's only a handful across the world. Because other ones are occupied by lispers ;)
12:23:29
antoszka
Not sure. Most lisp jobs I've heard about in the recent years were in Europe: Portugal, Finland, UK, Spain, Berlin, Kiev.
12:29:14
schweers
has lisp been used in space travel recently? I think I once heard a war story about lisp on a probe or something, but that was ages ago, if memory serves
12:32:59
phoe
"Debugging a program running on a $100M piece of hardware that is 100 million miles away is an interesting experience."