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19:55:29
rumbler31
phoe: I'm looking at running your ansi-tests branch of ccl. I'd like to reproduce your results. How did you go about building that branch?
19:57:08
phoe
I will be able to help you build that on Thursday or later - right now I'm 100% in ELS-local-chairing mindset
20:03:23
rumbler31
yea I bet. I'm disappointed because I was looking forward to watching it live, but this is the week I have to go into the office and I won't be able to watch
20:14:46
_death
I asked because I never looked at abcl.. but I just cloned it and cloc gives about 60kloc in each language
21:09:19
LispSporks
Probably means where it saved it and where you tried to rename it too, are on different filesystems. Try a file copy instead.
22:14:38
|3b|
ACTION wonders if slime's receive-if (on sbcl) should bind *break-on-signals* to NIL, since it seems to get confused if condition-wait SIGNALs a deadline, causing it to try to run a debugger-loop inside the with-mutex, which does receive-if, which gets recursive lock error in with-mutex, which runs debugger, etc
22:15:32
|3b|
or if there is some better way to handle things, or if that isn't what's happening in the first place
22:39:30
|3b|
or alternately, if force-output on slime-output-stream shouldn't use deadlines in the first place
22:43:45
|3b|
(let ((*break-on-signals* t)) (loop repeat 10000 do (format t "~c" (code-char (random 1000000))) (force-output))) seems to reproduce it reliably (random characters so emacs has to go digging for fonts slowing it down enough to trigger the 0.1 sec deadline)
22:46:31
mister_m
is there a way to check for the presence of a value of a slot in an object without tripping an UNBOUND-SLOT condition? I was using (slot-value ...) when I ran into this, thinking I could test with (null ...)
0:26:20
mister_m
using slime, is there a way to recompile a function in a manner like C-c C-c, but with `(declare (optimize debug))`? I can add that to the function and recompile as normal, but I am wondering if slime can do this for me.
0:27:26
no-defun-allowed
See the documentation (i.e. when in a Lisp buffer, type C-h k C-c C-c): "With (positive) prefix argument the form is compiled with maximal debug settings (āC-uā). With negative prefix argument it is compiled for speed (āM--ā)."
1:38:12
nij
minion: memo for theothornhill: I've read the log again.. and I melted. Thanks so much :-D Let me know if I can help any.. (beware i'm just a noob)!
1:38:36
nij
minion: memo for beach: Good news from theothornhill! Seems like UltraSpec is going to come back alive :-D
3:04:19
minion
beach, memo from nij: Good news from theothornhill! Seems like UltraSpec is going to come back alive :-D
4:07:31
nij
How is an ffi designed? In particular, if I want to call a foreign abstract object (and play with it) in lisp, what should I do? Must I write a wrapper that models the foreign object in terms of a lisp object? Are there some known cases that won't work in lisp?
4:11:11
jcowan
THere are two ways to do it: write the C (or Blub) function using a specific signature that Lisp uses, or write a Lisp function that provides a C signature. In other words, either weird C glue or weird Lisp glue.
4:14:26
moon-child
most languages that are willing to speak to other languages do so using the c abi
4:15:22
White_Flame
FFIs are pretty complicated, in terms of GC walking the stack and knowing what's lisp vs C (or other), as well as needing native pointers & allocations represented in with lisp tagged values
4:15:30
moon-child
c++ abi has been implemented by non-c++ compilers twice as far as I know (d and raku). Both implementations are incomplete. C++ abi is huge and horrible. That's not a road you want to go down
4:17:13
White_Flame
you asked how it's _designed_. feel free to use them. don't try to design them as some introductory project
4:17:20
nij
Very interesting.. I wonder why languages are so hard to translate.. even in the realm of computer science.
4:18:09
White_Flame
every language has its own notion of memory allocation, how strings are structured, etc
4:18:51
moon-child
even languages with very similar type systems, like lua and js, you would probably run into trouble with
4:21:26
moon-child
remby96: _compiling_ one language to another isn't difficult. What's difficult is retaining the language-level semantics and type system as you do so in a way that makes interoperation practical
4:24:09
White_Flame
and what's difficult is sharing a single process address space with a different language's running binary stuff
4:24:26
loli
The type theory bit shouldn't be too bad, you are taking one formal mathematical system and compiling it to a stronger or weaker one. Idris, and Agda both compile down to Haskell this way
4:24:47
loli
Haskell and other languages compile down to eventually remove their type theory, or compile it down to an IR with weaker type theory
4:25:44
White_Flame
in fact, on the symbolics lisp machines, they had a C compiler that generated lisp processor machine code and played nicely with the system (if slow)
4:25:58
nij
> moon-child: "What's difficult is retaining the language-level semantics and type system as you do so in a way that makes interoperation practical" ;; <= this!
4:27:57
loli
there is interesting research with graded model types, where you can get a system F system out of it, so you could program in such a system and use languages with type systems in System F, or export to them in this way
4:28:15
saturn2
C programs on the lisp machine created a lisp byte-vector to function as the C program's "memory"
4:30:17
loli
moon-child: I'd have to drudge that up, but it comes out of better way to do QTT (think linear types on steroids)
4:30:56
pyc
Is it possible to do string interpolation within format using variable names, e.g. something along the lines of (format t "hello, {{name}}") ?
4:33:09
loli
does CL-INTERPOL change the " reader macro, or does it define a custom define function?
4:35:33
no-defun-allowed
I heard that they could run TeX on a Lisp machine using the C implementation, so it probably worked well enough.
4:36:50
no-defun-allowed
...though TeX is written in literate Pascal, and a conversion program generates the C code.
4:37:17
loli
why the conversion, do more systems just run C, or is it due to performance or maintainability concerns?
4:37:47
no-defun-allowed
Yeah, there are more systems with C compilers than Pascal - Lisp machines had both though.
4:38:15
loli
Is there a lot of literature on the Lisp machine, it seems a lot of that knowledge was lost with time
5:10:30
White_Flame
as far as symbolics goes, there's a lot of scans of both manuals & internal documents that are online now
5:11:09
White_Flame
there's no complete description of everything from the ground up, though, especially in terms of making a bootable image from scratch
5:12:46
loli
I guess i haven't been looking too hard then. I've found image literature lacking in general. Factor and MIT Scheme have some bits, but not much besides that
5:13:03
remby96
there was some website that had a lot ... I had to use it to get some info on the ibm 7094
6:50:44
susam
remby96: European Lisp Symposium - https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2021/index.html / https://www.twitch.tv/elsconf