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0:27:26
palter
We're still emulating a 32-bit processor. The default memory size in the emulator is 4095MW.
0:30:06
palter
This is a freshly booted VLM on my Apple silicon Mac mini https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/iegttaDL/VLM.png
0:32:00
caoliver
How do you have your keyboard mapped, or do you have an old 'bolix kbd interfaced to your mac?
0:32:01
palter
The emulator maps data to one area of memory and tags to another. So, if we were to somehow fill memory, it would be using 2^32 bytes for tags and 8^32. bytes for data.
0:33:41
palter
It is. The VLM world loads are actually store that way so we can mmap directly into memory.
0:34:40
no-defun-allowed
Is anything compiled to the register machine Genera runs on? Does that also split tags and data?
0:37:23
caoliver
I did have some time on a heavily locked down VAX/VMS box in school, but that was no fun.
0:39:22
caoliver
Relative of his (Sally) lives near me, and her late husband and I started a small ISP back in the 90s.
0:41:08
caoliver
The only historical thing I have on my boxen is a Hercules instance running Michigan Terminal System. I tossed that together to scare an old friend who went to UMich.
0:42:08
palter
(I've lived in Boston all my life. Started hacking in high school on an IBM 1130 in 1968)
0:52:34
terpri
White_Flame, revivory is a great name. i called my cl-based ivory emulator mammoth :) but it can barely POST at the moment, not close to full functionality
0:54:17
terpri
it's unfortunate that opengenera will presumably remain proprietary. some folks in #lispm were making good progress with CADR emulation (emulating newer versions than what was originally released), but the channel was locked without notice
1:02:24
terpri
https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 <- CADR work (system 78 is usable and they're trying to get system 98 or 99 working; no idea how significant the differences between versions are though)
1:09:48
White_Flame
terpri: one thing that I really like and got in early is the ability to call directly from CL into Ivory functions, but that's only sane when the emulation is paused
1:10:06
White_Flame
it would be nice to transition both ways, and get native CL stuff accessed from Genera as well
1:11:52
White_Flame
my net connection is being stupid right now so I hven't kept up with the conversation, but I tried the instructions from https://static.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html again, and was able to build VLM from source, which is really, really good for me to be able to continue now. It hadn't worked in the past from source builds for me
1:23:56
palter
That is, of course, the C emulator which is a transliteration of the Alpha native VLM source code to C. It has some interesting issues. (One I remember from a client's site is that either the calendar clock or microsecond clock runs about 3 times real speed. Don't remember which one. But, TCP timeouts were messed up by it.)
1:26:14
palter
I would love to see Genera (and Open Genera and Portable Genera) released but JCMa hasn't answered my last email so I don't know why he won't.
1:27:02
White_Flame
right, I'm not porting that VLM, I'm rewriting from first principles. But it can give me an execution trace of what should be happening for reference, now that I can adjust its source and build
1:28:02
caoliver
JCMa is an interesting fellow to say the least. The license surrounding his web server was ummm... interesting.
1:32:25
terpri
fun factoid: according to my reading of the standard license header, as of 2018, the US federal government could unilaterally relicense most of the genera source code if they wanted, presumably due to the level of public funding
1:33:31
terpri
hard to say whether that's more or less likely than the copyright owner (john c. mallery?) relicensing it though
1:39:52
palter
This is the clause from the copyright notice that terpri was referencing. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TXUEulOs/
1:41:06
terpri
caoliver, not sure if it's DARPA per se, but the clause refers to the National Reconnonaissance Office
1:41:11
caoliver
I just wondered about how the public funding came about. I was always a little miffed that RSA wasn't broadly available for public use given that taxpayers (via the Navy) funding the development.
1:41:46
terpri
and https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/48/252.227-7014#b_2 is the relevant law, i believe
1:42:31
caoliver
Not that I was any sort of genius (I'm most certainly not), but the Martin Gardner article piqued my interest.
1:43:24
terpri
"Government purpose rights shall remain in effect for a period of five years unless a different period has been negotiated." symbolics apparently negotiated something like a *thirty year* restriction :p
1:44:12
palter
This one is a bit more up-to-date I think. (Note the expiration date) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6pYRUnLn/
1:47:43
caoliver
I think the key language is "No restrictions apply after the expiration date shown above."
1:48:37
caoliver
That would also depend on the government having worlds absent of classified information.
1:52:21
terpri
right, and "the Government shall have unlimited rights" after expiration. but whether they want to exercise those rights is a separate question
1:54:14
caoliver
Maybe I should have gone to law school rather than playing with math and computers.
1:55:19
terpri
hm, seems that you can only view relatively recent spending on usaspending.gov. but the army paid symbolics almost $600k between 2006 and 2011 (for onsite hardware and software support) so someone was still using it
2:03:23
palter
Those dates are post Symbolics so the Army would've been contracting through David Schmidt. I know that around 2015, there was a DoD dictum to get off non-standard systems. It's why Dave contracted with me (through Clozure) to do the Intel port.
2:04:41
palter
There were a couple of clients left then as I recall. One used Genera just for development and deployed on Allegro, I think. The other ran their application as a service.
2:05:32
palter
There's still a client who uses Genera for development and deploys on Allegro for a commercail product.
2:19:55
specbot
Examples of Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Printer: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_accba.htm
2:31:35
caoliver
That DoD dictum isn't surprising: What is surprising is that it wasn't issued sooner.
4:54:13
jcowan
Maiko, the Interlisp VM, also runs on both Mac and Linux (and Solaris and of course Linux for Windows)
4:54:46
jcowan
As for Elisps, it's true that Guile and Kawa don't provide the editor-specific data structures, but they do provide the Elisp language as such.
11:07:04
phoe
because then what no-defun-allowed said - get a list of restarts available in the current dynenv this way via COMPUTE-RESTARTS, get restart names via RESTART-NAME, get restart reports via princ-to-stringing the restart objects, call them via INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY after binding *query-io* in a proper way
11:24:33
phoe
jmercouris: basically this sounds like you want to write your own Lisp debugger, which kind of makes sense because nyxt aims to be a Lisp environment
11:25:51
ldbeth
globally, he encountered the problem that setting *print-case* would cause trouble for cl-base64's macro
11:27:14
phoe
;; I think that at least one of my own libraries is going to fall apart the same way if print-case is modified
11:29:32
phoe
what's the exact error you are getting? cl-base64 seems actually immune to this sorta error
11:30:58
ldbeth
he added (setf *print-case* :downcase) in his .sbclrc and using cl-base64-20201016-git
11:32:46
ldbeth
and it's acually loading another package complains "The function cl-base64:base64-string-to-usb8-array is undefined."