freenode/#lisp - IRC Chatlog
Search
8:00:13
adlai
srandon111: loke[m] forgot Clozure CL, an implementation that is quite portable, and has a compiler that runs quickly and produces reasonably fast code
8:01:01
adlai
ACTION usually recommends CCL for beginners because the compiler is fast enough that, for interactive programming at the repl, there is pretty much no noticeable compilation delay
8:18:24
adlai
it is amazing how an unexpected escalation of formality can be a wet blanket to one's hubris, although that is off-topic.
8:20:42
adlai
zacts: allow me to add an anti-recommedation for Godel, Escher, Bach, unless you are also a fan of classical music, douglas hofstatder, or even both
8:21:44
adlai
ACTION is a fan of Hafstadter's works -- that is how he first read about lisp! -- although there are excerpts from the book that give you an idea of the whole thing while leaving you precious hours free for, I dunno, reading CLHS?
8:22:23
Lycurgus
dumbass video games: lack of sophistication, human conversational agent, the opposite of that
8:23:26
adlai
apparently that book is considered a "cult book", similar to cult movies, where people tap out early if they are not hooked; which is a shame, since it is written as a book that expects the reader to read the entire thing, as opposed to e.g. a standards document.
8:26:47
ck_
his book of essays (Metamagical Themas) is more suited if you don't want a cover-to-cover experience. There's also more usage of lisp in it.
8:27:13
adlai
ACTION had just taken an entire semester of java, before reading Metamagical Themas over the summer and encountering lisp. life could have taken a severely different turn!
8:27:27
ck_
Oh look, it's on the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/MetamagicalThemas . I should donate extra to them this year.
8:27:44
flip214
I quite liked GEB... it's on my technical top-10 list, along with "Visual Display of Quantitative Information"
8:28:52
flip214
ck_: " The item is not available due to issues with the item's content. " when trying to download an ebook?
8:29:52
adlai
no-defun-allowed: that's understandable; one of the few long conversations I had irl about cl ended with the other person (also a programmer) concluding that learning such a powerful language is a bad life decision, because then most other encounters with human technology will consist of disappointment
8:30:32
no-defun-allowed
Well, sure, that describes it. And that you also may have standards for the presentation of the course that also are not met.
8:30:45
adlai
although, he seemed to be at the end of his active programming career, and thus able to make such a statement.
8:33:43
flip214
OTOH, especially in IT there's _so_much_ disappointment when dealing with other people's stuff... my own stuff I expect to break (or at least can guess when), but commercial software should behave better
8:33:51
ck_
I've watched a few older talks this year, one Keynote by Guy Steele (From 2013 I believe?) where he implores "can we please get tail calls in JDK 9?"
8:36:28
Lycurgus
https://github.com/fargonauts there is a lisp version but the main deal is pythong apparently
8:38:11
moon-child
ck_: I have found it an endless source of hilarity that guy sat on the design comittees for common lisp, scheme, java, and c
8:38:19
Lycurgus
the reason people burn out and have negative attitudes about software development (in comparison with other professionals fields)
8:38:42
adlai
beach: I think it is a common attitude among those who are seeking careers working as fungible programmers in a variety of enterprises, as opposed to those for whom 'career as programmer' could plausibly include a decade working alone, another decade doing academic research, etc
8:38:44
no-defun-allowed
adlai: Then make them not disappointing. How to do that is up to you, but you are likely as capable as as your colleagues to make the field better, and you may have a better idea of what would be better.
8:40:05
Lycurgus
which mode of society/production, determines the greater and lesser snake pits of industry/academe
8:41:46
adlai
no-defun-allowed: here's one impossible... I wish all the hi-tech managers got together and decided on programming practices that kept their employees as fungible cogs, without limiting the choice of programming language
8:41:47
no-defun-allowed
I won't say what exactly, but "just" invalidate the assumptions that your statement has.
8:46:14
adlai
in Earth, we've had a century of capitalism, communism, and hegelism, and it has given us Common Lisp, Racket, and most importantly, Stalin; whereas in the other planets, they've had five billion years of peace love and no complaints, and what do they have to show for themselves? not even a cuckoo clock, just a bunch of epicycles.
8:50:27
phoe
"in Earth, we've had a century of capitalism, communism, and hegelism, and it has given us Common Lisp, Racket, and most importantly, Stalin"
8:51:24
adlai
'stalin' is a scheme ~compiler~, not interpreter, supposedly one that reached new heights of whole-program optimization.
8:55:34
adlai
back to more productive topics, what is the best overview of the new package naming conventions?
8:56:01
adlai
ACTION keeps seeing references to [a] package-local nickname library[ies], and never bothered studying this
8:58:23
adlai
ACTION reads phoe's article https://gist.github.com/phoe/2b63f33a2a4727a437403eceb7a6b4a3
9:00:22
adlai
... although there is also local-package-aliases, and phoe's article does not appear to mention this library: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/local-package-aliases.html
9:02:08
adlai
ACTION repeats that the underlying emphasis should be on the naming convention for the long verbose detailed unambiguous name, and wonders whether there are alternatives to pretending that the domain-name system is sane
9:04:05
adlai
off the top of my head, the packages all use either reversed domain names (e.g. com.symbolics.information.much.too ), or a long library name as prefix and hope the name is uncommon enough to avoid collision.
9:05:05
phoe
because you can use a:alist-plist instead of net.common-lisp.alexandrias.completely.imaginary.package.name:alist-plist
9:05:32
phoe
(I need to make a second version of it that it less of a rant and more of a useful article)
9:17:30
adlai
... wonderful, I learn now that ultralisp includes scalpl, just after its removal from quicklisp
9:18:19
adlai
ACTION does not mind people acting as travis-ci backups; it is almost a compliment, although... not necessarily a good idea.
9:22:58
flip214
phoe: package-local nicknames mean that using INTERN at runtime (even indirectly, eg. when parsing JSON, YAML, etc.!) needs to take *PACKAGE* into account, right?
9:31:48
adlai
ACTION is amazed that phoe has the patience to answer so many of the reddit comments on the article!
9:48:43
adlai
some of the behavior standardized as undefined in clhs 2.3.5 could be useful for concisely naming common mathematical objects according to small integers
9:48:47
specbot
Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm
9:50:21
adlai
ACTION even at one point had a teacher who used that notation for fractions; in this case, the mathematical objects are, e.g., roots of unity as equivalence classes, rather than members of the field of complex numbers
12:40:47
jackdaniel
I don't remember exact nick, but it is derived from his name (available on the github page)
13:11:20
minion
say "perhaps": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/say%20\"perhaps\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 28..
13:23:11
adlai
why would anyone get angry at Nix? it is a strict improvement over the predecessor posix distros...
13:24:20
lucasb
Hello. I think something messed the layout of planet.lisp.org, everything is in italics, inside <i></i> tags, after the middle of first post.
13:25:04
adlai
jmercouris: there's a joke here somewhere, about how only Japanese Lisp programmers have faith
13:26:16
adlai
ACTION is not sufficiently versed in Japanese culture to describe the concept precisely, but essentially, the word "face" has a meaning there, beyond the literal one.
13:27:30
adlai
it is probably closer to the idiomatic usage of 'spine', in English, than to nebulous concepts such as prestige and reputation.