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8:26:11
jackdaniel
ACTION puts down the bowl with popcorn and closes the issue #3 on github. all you said phoe is something I agree with :)
8:31:27
jackdaniel
actually it was a donut (and it was tasty), but popcorn seems to be a "figure of speech"
8:51:00
phoe
imode: https://github.com/cl-library-docs/common-lisp-libraries/issues/3 - wear a hazmat suit before entering.
8:52:43
ldb
in general i don't like arrow, bcs i'd choose another language for doing functional style programming
9:06:08
jackdaniel
OK, frauds and drama aside, lisp lisp lisp (pun at the phrase "team team team" from the it crowd franchise)
9:12:57
ldb
I think I'd headache if I recived a peice of code from 30 years ago with "idioms" been used everywhere and has to reverse engineering what's going on there
9:19:15
phantomics
It's just 4 lines, I understand quux needs parens because it has arguments after the first implicit one
9:20:04
phoe
this is to be able to provide function names to the arrow macro, which is kinda convenient
9:22:11
ck_
Here is some helpful code that subsumes many uses https://github.com/randomcorp/thread-first-thread-last-backwards-question-mark-as-arrow-cond-arrow-bang
12:12:26
ldb
I got the LCF ML from Nuprl3 running correctly independently. Now I can start develop my own ML dialect on this.
12:14:27
no-defun-allowed
The first ML implementation was written in Lisp; I don't know if it is that one though.
14:47:41
pfdietz
It's interesting that the ML page on Wikipedia does not mention the connection to LCF (which I knew about, having been at Cornell around that time.)
14:54:21
loke[m]
easye: Xah is actually much more productive than hs. What he produces is not great, but at least he does something.
14:56:44
loke[m]
pfdietz: I wasn't part of the CL community at that time. I've read some of his rants though.
14:57:15
edgar-rft
Wikipedia is a good thing and I already have learned lots from it, but it's not a replacement for a good teacher.
15:02:20
pfdietz
Eric's style is understandable when you realize he was suffering from ulcerative colitis for 15 years before it finally killed him at age 44.
15:05:37
edgar-rft
Unfortunately "community" always includes that you have to deal with idiots (e.g. like me), but I wouldn't waste too much time with arguing, just simply ignore them.
15:17:16
aeth
edgar-rft: hexstream could just be a self-proclaimed CL expert like I'm the self-proclaimed galactic emperor (I am), in a completely ignorable way. But hexstream normally tries to get in very public arguments, especially on Github.
15:28:22
p_l
APic: It was president of the galaxy that had third arm (for punching people while skiing)
15:50:49
iarebatman
Hey everyone, quick question.. Does anyone know of a good article/guide for setting up a common lisp environment on Windows that will work properly with quicklisp dists that are expecting to be able to run grovel/gcc?
15:52:49
iarebatman
Does that somehow have anything to do with grovel/gcc setup, because that's my issue
15:53:39
iarebatman
I mean, I suspect I'll have to do something like run sbcl/ccl within the context of msys2 - but I haven't been able to get that to work yet
15:55:53
lotuseater
this week I want to show my rommate some programming and he has windows so i thought about portacle
15:56:58
iarebatman
lotuseater: Yeah, I have a similar situation.. I need make lisp accessible to my coworkers before it's a legitimate option..
15:57:46
iarebatman
to be blunt, they wouldn't take any amount of time to learn emacs though. I did find that Atom has a package called slima though, and that's more their style.
15:58:48
iarebatman
phoe: I actually JUST stumbled upon this reddit post, looks exactly like what I was looking for. Putting it here in case it helps anyone else: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/fyomln/running_mcclim_and_other_lisp_packages_on_windows/
15:59:31
travv0
someone also pretty recently made a sublime slime-alike, haven't tried it so i can't comment on how well it works but that's an option if they use sublime iarebatman
16:05:09
aeth
lotuseater: someone needs to start a Common Lisp Engineer certification project where you can pay to take a multi-hour multiple choice test.
16:06:56
lotuseater
i learn the most out of (special) interests and i think the most people here also do
16:07:08
jmercouris
you know those issues raise a really good question, how do you support justice in the CL community?
16:07:14
iarebatman
well, you know - the demand for lisp developers is so high right now. This certification would allow employers to sift through the applicants for the quality picks...
16:09:14
aeth
but maybe the demand's 0 just because it's so difficult to find someone who's a certified expert.
16:10:13
lotuseater
last week i wrote an email to Clozure Associates to ask how to become part of it. became an answer with "no job offers right now"
16:15:25
jmercouris
phoe: I am thinking about this, and I think also about how pjb's libraries are also excluded, I wonder, is this the way?
16:16:00
jmercouris
pjb has been excluded from the official Quicklisp dist by Zach for political reasons
16:16:53
phoe
AFAIK there's always the possibility to create new ones; quicklisp-dist is free software
16:17:42
jmercouris
so my question here is, how does removing his software further the goal of insulating the common lisp community from his abuse?
16:22:10
phoe
for me, it is to make a very clear cut that this kind of behavior, especially lasting for years, is not acceptable whatsoever and under any circumstances; in theory free software is free software, especially under unlicense, but I think that uprooting hexstream altogether, his abusive behavior along with the "merit" which he has produced, will provide a much cleaner picture afterwards since there'll be nothing
16:22:16
phoe
remaining that could still make the connections between the lisp community over here and hex.
16:22:23
phoe
if you know what I mean, and if I am explaining myself clearly - sorry, sleep deprivation
16:23:40
jmercouris
well, would you like me to mention details about my business in this channel :-D?
16:23:53
jmercouris
I think you will quickly find we stray away from discussion about programming, and more about business
16:24:35
jmercouris
I am happy to talk about it, just trying to avoid provoking some users who get annoyed by off-topic chat
16:24:46
edgar-rft
aeth: because business means you're enslaved to money, and this is *free*-node :-)
16:24:58
cl-arthur
lotuseater: "how to become a non-self-proclaimed CL expert?" - by analogy with http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html, get a CL Expert to call you a CL Expert :)
16:25:23
lotuseater
i think there is much potential for nearly every domain or niches and getting out of the mess
16:25:57
phoe
the resulting picture is just much cleaner if there is nothing to remind us of the shit that he used to do; when he's gone, period, set to nil, altogether, along with all of the libraries that have exactly 0 dependents on Quicklisp
16:26:22
phoe
that's how I perceive it - less chances for any accidental mixups or whatever that may happen otherwise
16:27:23
jmercouris
so if there is no dependence or usage of any of his libraries, then nobody in the Common Lisp space will need to communicate with him
16:27:35
phoe
due to the *years* of abuse that have happened, I think that in this case the line must be clear clear and separates a person as a whole, due to their contributions than a whole. I find the approach of "this is fine so it'll stay, but this is nuh-uh" to be dirty and not suitable for holes as big as this
16:28:02
phoe
I don't know how to explain, it's just that a real broad stroke seems much more appropriate in this case than a thin zigzag.
16:28:46
jmercouris
these topics are always sensitive and nuanced, and therefore difficult to conceptualize/explain
16:30:08
phoe
can you support me with this and glue what I've posted above and reformat it slightly?
16:30:57
phoe
I'm simply exhausted, it's been 48 hours of a hexstream-ensnaring marathon where I slept only the first night of it
16:42:34
cl-arthur
jmercouris: business field for context, what lispy features you've leveraged in particular to solve the problems, and whether you've had any customer reactions to using lisp (if customers notice) :)
16:43:10
jmercouris
cl-arthur: these days we are only now working on a consumer product, which you may have heard of (Nyxt)
16:43:32
jmercouris
cl-arthur: in which case Lisp is a direct selling point OF the product, in that it is highly customizable, at run-time
16:46:29
pfdietz
I don't use arrow macros, but I do sometimes use nest. The forms are in reverse order though.
16:49:07
aeth
if you're feeling really uncreative, I think you can do this: (let* ((foo ...) (foo ...) (foo ...)) (... foo))
16:49:38
aeth
someone mentioned a similar example with $ iirc, but that makes it look a lot more intentional, while in reality, there might be 12 different names, and it just happens that foo shows up twice or thrice in a row
16:51:36
lotuseater
jmercouris and one day wipe javascript and make CL the native browser language :D
17:09:09
Fade
congratulations on your book, phoe. I've ordered my copy, and look forward to reading it over christmas.
17:44:02
mfiano
jmercouris and I have used it in a commercial project. Other than that, probably not
17:45:19
gendl
The CLF has a rudimentary payments webapp where we have our own half-assed stripe interface intertwined into it (only for single transactions).
17:46:14
mfiano
Yes, it was developed at a time when I needed such a thing for a commercial project, and didn't document it because of time concerns. I have not used it since, but it was used successfully in a large commerical application.
17:46:24
gendl
Now we want to add subscription capability and i'm ready to rip out our half-baked stripe interface code and try to use your :stripe package... I'm also open to adding to the README.md
17:47:37
gendl
would you consider coaching me through getting started? I can show you what we are doing currently which will probably give you a good laugh as well (hopefully not nightmares)
17:48:59
mfiano
Sadly, I think all that knowledge has slipped my mind. But if jmercouris approves, I could publicize snippets of proprietery code, as that project dissolved.
17:50:51
gendl
so you were using it to do subscriptions, right? I see subscription.lisp and subscription-item.lisp.
17:51:46
mfiano
as far as i remember the stripe library covered the entire api at the time i wrote it
17:58:10
mfiano
gendl: here, i wrote an example without any of our business logic: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/aa526ecfe4987b7b60ecbb18190ba5db
18:03:46
exit70[m]
hi, lisp newbie, looking for a native cl on apple m1. so far I found sbcl and ccl needs porting. ecl looks kinda portable but i got error at configure stage. clisp requires porting in libsigsegv.
18:05:22
shka_
exit70[m]: perhaps you can take a look at the ABCL? It runs on the JVM so it is bound to work (I HOPE!)
18:06:29
shka_
ECL should work, but i have no idea what you need to do to actually run it on the OSX
18:07:42
exit70[m]
openjdk does not work on m1 mac right away yet. give me a second to post the ecl configure log
18:08:20
astronavt
does anyone have experience here using CFFI to write bindings to libraries that depend on GLib? i've worked through the CFFI tutorial that uses curl to download a URL, but i'm not sure how to proceed in this more-complicated case
18:11:00
astronavt
im not sure honestly. the docs for libnotify file:///usr/share/gtk-doc/html/libnotify/libnotify-notify.html show that it uses types like gboolean
18:13:45
astronavt
so i'd just use defctype or define-foreign-type on the few specific glib things i need, and then go from there making bindings to libnotify?
18:16:32
fiddlerwoaroof
You have to use the zulu openjdk, which is the only arm64 JDK I can find atm
18:17:10
fiddlerwoaroof
https://jp.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?os=macos&architecture=arm-64-bit&package=jdk
18:18:42
exit70[m]
I see. Thanks! I think most people simply use rosetta homebrew for now but I'm just curious about how many packages would not work natively.
18:19:15
fiddlerwoaroof
I did manage to do a bunch of the porting work, I'm just stuck on an error with mmap
18:19:39
fiddlerwoaroof
(and I'm sure there's more subtle issues too, haven't gotten something that even gets to a REPL yet)
18:20:09
fiddlerwoaroof
If anyone wants to try to go further, my changes are here: https://gitlab.com/fiddlerwoaroof/sbcl/-/snippets/2041970
18:29:33
exit70[m]
haha I was like that too. the arm64 devices are kinda nice though as they are fanless. and they run x86 applications like a real celeron (or slower)
18:37:26
fiddlerwoaroof
Apple's arm64 devices blow even relatively high-end x86 computers out of the water.
18:39:28
iarebatman
lol this is super frustrating.. I'm pretty sure I need to compile a CL environment within msys2 to get things going. I've tried sbcl, ccl, and ecl. All fail to compile with various issues.
18:44:43
iarebatman
I figured at least one of those 3 popular implementations would 'just work' - but no.
18:46:57
fiddlerwoaroof
My general impression is that implementation developers don't really use it as their primary platform
18:47:26
iarebatman
I'm probably just asking for trouble by even attempting to use it for actual business use-cases and should just do something else.
18:48:16
iarebatman
Well here's the thing TBH.. I can download sbcl binaries and they work fine on windows.. I can get the development environment setup just fine..
18:49:24
iarebatman
they assume gcc is setup like it is on linux and I've got libs & headers ready for it to do some stuff with.
18:50:51
iarebatman
I just didn't like the startup times involved mainly. I know that's a sort of shallow reason, but it bugs me lol.
18:51:25
fiddlerwoaroof
Maybe also Corman Lisp? That is/was a windows-first implementation that has been revived recently
18:56:07
jmercouris
mfiano: feel free to publish any snippets as long as you remove identifying information
18:58:05
jmercouris
fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think Corman Lisp is a sound reccomendation, I would still suggest SBCL on Windows
18:59:06
fiddlerwoaroof
I still think that, if you have to connect to something like Oracle or Kafka, ABCL or LispWorks is your best choice
19:05:43
iarebatman
Yeah that's unfortunate for me. I'm in a position where it'd probably be frowned upon to require the developer to use linux in order to get things done here.
19:06:07
exit70[m]
so Corman Lisp could be built use msvc? let me try if it builds cleanly for arm64 ...
19:06:11
iarebatman
I did just manage to get sbcl to compile inside msys2 finally - via roswell. Not sure if that'll magically solve my problems or not yet.
19:09:58
iarebatman
I've already got too many side projects lol, but I've definitely thought, 'gah! why doesn't this exist yet?'
19:11:33
iarebatman
lol scratch that 'sbcl builds on msys2 via roswell' comment. It builds, sort of. segfault immediately upon launching sbcl
19:12:06
astronavt
do quicklisp and/or asdf permit creating "environments" local to a project? like how python has venv, and ruby & nodejs/npm by default install packages to an isolated project-specific location
19:12:10
iarebatman
I have to do some other work, I'll revisit this later I guess. maybe look at wsl2 or possibly abcl. *sigh*
19:12:58
fiddlerwoaroof
But, I've never felt a need for that, the libraries generally maintain backwards-compatibility pretty nicely
19:14:05
fiddlerwoaroof
Yeah, the issue I have with version pinning is that, if you pin versions, they slowly get out of date
19:14:24
fiddlerwoaroof
And, eventually rather than relatively small version updates, you have a three-week+ project
19:15:01
astronavt
yeah, usually i dont pin specific versions. it's moreso that i'd like to keep libraries for one project separated from other projects
19:15:43
astronavt
i am also starting to learn about / read about ASDF and i'm a bit confused - does it expect me to put all of my lisp source code in a few specific places?
19:17:10
fiddlerwoaroof
One issue with venvs in lisp is that I don't normally restart my lisp when I switch projects
19:17:57
astronavt
again maybe this is very un-lisp of me, but i definitely want to do a clean restart and re-run from scratch now and then
19:18:40
fiddlerwoaroof
I used to do that all the time, these days I rely on CI to make sure that my systems can be reloaded from scratch
19:18:48
astronavt
ive just had too many bad experiences in jupyter notebooks with losing track of what i defined and encountering subtle bugs as a result
19:27:45
shka_
astronavt: CL with slime is actually really nice for things you would typically use jupyter for