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8:19:12
phoe
Fare: but then again, the *original* idea for my talk was, to quote a famous non-existent researcher, "Science isn't about «why», it's about «why not»?"
8:20:43
phoe
so I just explored the idea and talked about what I found. I literally created a solution that is looking for problems - and it's good that SICL happened to be one such problem
8:21:27
phoe
plus, it was a very good exercise in pushing the condition system to its portable limits
8:26:12
phoe
so, summing all the reasons for the talk, we have 1) because-we-can-ism, 2) spreading knowledge about the functioning of the condition system, 3) possibility to integrate condition/exception systems of CL + other languages (possibly also CL) that have a common compilation target (possibly also CL), 4) SICL adopting the portable condition system, 5) checking how far we can push the CL standard in regard to the
8:28:28
phoe
;; also, I really expect (1) to be a meme by now, especially since in my case (1) came from a quote from the late Cave Johnson of Aperture Laboratories
8:32:41
phoe
Fare: I think we can all bear the consequences of my research existing, contrary to the research of the Jurassic Park
8:32:43
SAL9000
phoe: "Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT. Why is so much of our science dangerous? Why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you on the butt on the way out, because you are fired."
8:33:32
SAL9000
the CL condition system is more of a bird than a dinosaur... it's still alive and useful :-)
8:47:52
no-defun-allowed
Sometimes people put : before LOOP keywords, as their editors will render those in a different colour.
8:48:47
no-defun-allowed
I don't do that myself, because I don't really have a problem with reading LOOP.
8:49:04
solrize
i don't see different coloring in slime after adding the colons, but they make the keywords stand out more, which is good
8:49:18
solrize
i had originally called the parameters of that function "from" and "to" but that looked really confusing
8:49:41
no-defun-allowed
(Putting : before a LOOP keyword causes it to read as a keyword, which is a different concept, and LOOP will accept LOOP keywords from any package.)
8:52:48
beach
Sometimes I say: I recommend you do M-x define-global-abbrev<RET>thx<RET>Oh, thank you very much<RET>
8:57:26
no-defun-allowed
(From memory, I came in #lisp one day asking for someone to eye over cl-decentralise1, and explained it was an attempt at writing a distributed networking system, and then I went off about how it was written because I was annoyed everyone wrote programs with centralised semantics, then "glued" distribution atop it, then ending up with some technical debt and having to rewrite a great portion of the program. You said
8:57:26
no-defun-allowed
that was an interesting observation, I said "ty beach", and you said "ywlcm"...maybe.)
9:01:48
no-defun-allowed
I used to rant a bit more; but then I had a conversation with another #lisp participant whom taught me a lot about distributed programming, so I like to think it wasn't very embarrassing.
9:02:34
beach
Embarrassment is an integral part of the learning process. Think about learning a foreign language, for instance.
9:03:14
beach
People who do everything they can to avoid being embarrassed don't learn very much. Those are dangerous people.
9:10:32
jackdaniel
I've been told that I'm not very gentle with maintaining the channel on-topic, so I've added a word "gentle" to avoid this accusation!
9:17:16
no-defun-allowed
jackdaniel: Maybe you should write the book "A gentle introduction to the #lisp topic"
14:04:00
phoe
Is there something like a visual S-expression editor? Something that will allow me to explore S-expressions by double-clicking them and edit slots of the browsed objects.
14:04:30
phoe
I'm thinking a Lisp inspector except with more visuals, possibly showing tree structure.
14:08:04
scymtym
McCLIM's rewritten Clouseau is kind-of like that. it can display certain pieces of information as graphs or trees and does so by default in a few cases. it is also possible to add custom ways of displaying objects. that said, clouseau is not suitable for editing source code
14:09:13
phoe
I don't really want to edit source code; I want more of a simple spreadsheet sort of thing.
14:09:47
scymtym
for example, here is the list of superclasses as a graph: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/new-inspector-5.png
14:10:10
phoe
An interactive plist editor where I can predefine some keys and create/retrieve/update/delete objects of such structure.
14:11:17
phoe
...Also, should (ql:quickload :mcclim) result in "Invalid index 2974 for (SIMPLE-VECTOR 2974), should be a non-negative integer below 2974."?
14:17:30
jackdaniel
Xach: it emerges from zpb-ttf package (open-font-loader -> load-post-info -> load-post-format-2
15:22:27
scymtym
the font has "sparse" indexing and unreferenced extended glyph names in the "post" table. zpb-ttf assumes "dense" indexing and therefore makes and populates an incomplete vector of extended glyph names which leads to the out-of-bounds access when one of the larger indices is processed
15:24:44
scymtym
in other words, zpb-ttf computes numberNewGlyphs in https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/typography/opentype/spec/post#version-20 in a way that is probably invalid
16:03:40
phantomics
phoe: I created a visual s-expression editor that works inside the browser, but there's still a lot of work to be done to get it useful
16:06:45
phantomics
Drop a message if you need help running it, I'm rebuilding part of the core and haven't paid much attention to the UX lately
16:09:08
scymtym
i was trying to give you an example in which the super and subclass graphs would look nice
18:49:01
phoe
Fare: what is the way of extending ASDF with a new operation? Is it possible to have things like a forward-referenced operation in a DEFSYSTEM form?
18:51:56
phoe
if I wanted to, say, :perform (ci-test-op (o c) (...)) in an ASD file, is it possible to have ASDF notice that the operation CI-TEST-OP is not defined yet, and therefore create a stand-in in form of a forward referenced class of some sort?
18:52:34
phoe
It obviously makes it impossible to invoke the CI-TEST-OP operation; but the benefit is that such ASDF forms will compile.
18:56:52
PuercoPope
phoe: instead of a new OP I think it would be better for the runners of test frameworks to support a mode where they terminate the process with the proper exit code instead. It is the same operation after all.
18:58:25
phoe
There's a lot said about ASDF backwards compatibility, but I haven't yet seen much about the other direction