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7:07:05
JohnMS_WORK
I'm unable to find any examples of sharing C++ classes with ECL. Does anyone else know of any?
8:37:22
MrMc
How do I create a vector of complex numbers? I am doing the following in SBCL but get a warning (MAKE-ARRAY 1024 :ELEMENT-TYPE 'COMPLEX :INITIAL-ELEMENT (COMPLEX 0 0) :FILL-POINTER 0)
8:40:45
jackdaniel
if you put (complex 0.0 0.0) as an initial element there will be no warning too, but if you decide on complex floats then specyfing it as element type may help the compiler
8:43:17
MrMc
So my definition should be (MAKE-ARRAY 1024 :ELEMENT-TYPE '(COMPLEX FLOAT) :INITIAL-ELEMENT (COMPLEX 0.0 0.0) :FILL-POINTER 0)
8:48:56
jackdaniel
I think you gone a little overboard with this paste ,) I'm glad I could be of use
9:24:51
gjvc
* (MAKE-ARRAY 1024 :ELEMENT-TYPE '(COMPLEX FLOAT) :INITIAL-ELEMENT (COMPLEX 0.0 0.0) :FILL-POINTER 0)
9:25:53
no-defun-allowed
yeah, if the fill pointer is at 0, then it's assumed you've only populated up to 0 and the printer will print only up to there
11:37:09
MrMc
I am trying to use (bordeaux-fft:fft source) and get an error: debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread The value #(#C(-1197.0d0 2047.0d0) .... ) is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY (COMPLEX DOUBLE-FLOAT) (*))
11:39:09
no-defun-allowed
You might get some slack from bordeaux-fft using bordeaux-fft:sfft, but otherwise it expects an array with :element-type (complex double-float).
11:40:36
MrMc
The array I am passing to the function is created as folows (make-array samples-to-allocate :element-type '(complex double-float) :initial-element (complex 0.0d0 0.0d0) :fill-pointer 0)
11:41:45
no-defun-allowed
Are you sure you need it? It looks you likely know how many samples you are going to transform.
12:02:12
MrMc
no-defun-allowed:removing the fill pointer did not resolve my problem but bordeaux-fft:sfft works
12:26:11
beach
jackdaniel has done some work on a CLIM-based documentation system. Either way, something like that (Concordia, was it?) would have to be defined to be used in something like CLIM, and McCLIM is quite usable now.
12:29:56
beach
an inspector (which we also have) that can do much more than the SLIME inspector, ...
12:30:03
beach
an editor (that we don't have, but it is being worked on) that can do much more than Emacs can for Common Lisp code, ...
12:30:07
beach
and a debugger (that we don't have, and for which we only have some ideas) that would be worthy of the name, unlike what we now have.
12:32:24
beach
ACTION is assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that "gd" means "good day" or something like that.
12:36:34
beach
LdBeth: There are two main ideas with Clordane. One is that I want a debugger to much more than something that lets me examine a backtrace when things go wrong. I also want to be able to set breakpoints, including in some system code. The other is that I want it to be possible for one thread to debug the code in another (or several other) threads in the same image.
12:54:39
beach
Oh, and the IDE should obviously contain ways of accessing the documentation in various ways: choosing from menus, clicking on code parts, etc.
12:58:36
beach
LdBeth: The thing about a Zmacs-like is that it is not that simple to do. For example, heisig is working on Trucler that provides incremental lexical environments. Those are needed for a sophisticated analysis of the code. And then it needs support from a compiler too, because only a compiler can determine the role of each expression in the code.
12:59:23
beach
LdBeth: And scymtym is maintaining Eclector, which is going to be used to parse the code in the buffer.
13:00:12
beach
Then that code will be "compiled" using Trucler incremental environments, either by a native compiler or by Cleavir.
13:03:06
beach
Then, errors and warnings signaled by the reader and the compiler need to be handled and presented to the user as appropriate feedback.
13:04:41
beach
LdBeth: As you can see, there are a lot of mutual dependencies here, and all the modules are being worked on. But getting them all done and working together is going to take some more time.
13:19:00
LdBeth
beach: yes. I’m planning on a tool help deriving code from specification and documents and keep docs updated with them. All these seem can be fit into my design, but I should keep up with the progress now
13:30:00
beach
scymtym: Speaking of which, did you ever get around to extracting that new function in Eclector, the one that reads either something that can be returned or something that is skipped?
13:31:56
beach
scymtym: As it turns out, in Second Climacs I couldn't find a suitable way of customizing the SICL reader to do what I need, so I copied the main reader function and modified it. That solution is clearly undesirable, so I would like to rip out that code and replace it with Eclector at some point.
13:43:02
beach
ebrasca: In American English, it means "orgasm", and in Russian it means "menopause".
13:43:50
beach
ebrasca: I'll explain the plan for Second Climacs. The plan is to use a very efficient buffer implementation, and to use the Common Lisp READ function to parse the contents of the buffer, as opposed to using regular expressions. Then the result of parsing the buffer will be handed to the compiler, for further analysis, all at typing speed.
13:46:54
jackdaniel
ecl depends on posix features. unless you put a posix system in your bios it will be hard
13:48:36
beach
ebrasca: So that the feedback will be instantaneous and without any particular keystrokes on the part of the user.
13:50:05
LdBeth
Emacs does that by saving file to disk and call the lint tool on it, which makes me worried about my disk life
13:50:11
ebrasca
beach: Can you destroy your system with it? (Like if you editing tcp of your system and you are working remotely on it.)
13:52:11
p_l
v0|d: it's possible to build ECL as EFI app, though it might take some wrangling in libs
13:52:50
beach
LdBeth: Emacs doesn't analyze Common Lisp code at typing speed. Maybe it does it with some other language.
13:53:58
p_l
the difference is that instead of crappy mishmash of CP/M emulation you're getting interesting API and modern environment
13:55:54
p_l
v0|d: the biggest issue, IMO, is intel pulling bytecode compiler behind expensive license, so bytecode use dropped heavily
13:57:27
p_l
because the only available tools stopped being available for free and now involve hefty license fee
14:00:58
p_l
the devkit remained open source (though was hard to find for some time) but the compiler ended up with high license fee
14:01:26
p_l
v0|d: significant changes between 1.10 and 2.0 which also became something actually deployed to more than just Itanium or experimental boards
14:02:26
p_l
then they put whole reference implementation (also place where some vendors put their extensions) as open source again, with all the changes since 1.10
14:05:07
p_l
v0|d: part of the complexity of UEFI API is that, like in Lisp or Smalltalk, it's very late-binding
14:07:37
p_l
you have "protocols" which have static definitions (essentially an array of function pointers), and which are identified by GUID
14:10:19
p_l
anyway, it's very nice in the sense that you can for example write a disk editor that will understand the same kind of disks that your firmware supports, without actually caring about details other than "block device"
14:11:16
v0|d
p_l: my eyes bleed when I see those new bios config screens, they are better than win3.1
14:12:07
p_l
v0|d: some people go crazy on designing them, yes. OTOH, UEFI having a gui toolkit built in means I could actually safely use serial terminal to configure everything on several machines I managed in the past
14:12:53
p_l
becuse you have a toolkit for defining menus, variables available for editing, things like that, and this is then consumed by a component which renders it on console
14:15:12
v0|d
llvm ir is so common these days, why don't uefi use it, maybe i'm wrong that llvm doesnt do real 16 code, and this sentence doesn't make sense.
14:17:14
p_l
(hell, x86 real16 code was better choice than LLVM bitcode, because you could reasonably write an emulator for that, and LLVM bitcode is extensible)
14:19:45
p_l
I switched to saying "If it's algol derived I probably can write it, and very probably read it"
14:25:22
p_l
more like UEFI. ACPI bytecode itself isn't that capable, even if it's theoretically turing complete (so is x86 page fault...)
14:47:07
beach
ebrasca: But people often need some initial training in order to know how to learn in an efficient and effective way.
14:49:21
beach
I frequently say something like "in software development, many developers don't have 5 years of experience, but 1 year of experience 5 times". Because they don't learn from it.
14:50:18
dlowe
you know what I find weird is that I never see job openings for more than 5 years experience
14:52:29
Josh_2
"in software development, many developers don't have 5 years of experience, but 1 year of experience 5 times"
14:52:59
Oladon_work
dlowe: I actually hate "years of experience" as a metric, partly because of the "1 year of experience 12 times" issue, but also partly due to the fact that people learn and grow and _experience_ at different rates
14:53:08
beach
Josh_2: It's a way of saying that people don't learn and train themselves according to what they did in the past.
14:53:25
p_l
dlowe: dunno, I'm currently banking of bedazzling people with "I have as many years of experience as the *TERM* is used"
14:54:15
Oladon_work
dlowe: Unfortunately, I haven't been able to figure out a way around using it to weed out all the brand-spanking-new "developers" who just graduated from a coding school and think they're qualified for a senior developer role.
14:54:37
Oladon_work
Josh_2: Obviously not beach, but typically I see it when someone's been doing the same thing, over and over and over again, for x years
14:54:41
beach
dlowe: That would require management to realize that this kind of experience is needed. And they usually don't.
14:55:40
Oladon_work
p_l: Eh, it does help with weeding people out, but I assume you're saying hard to replace it without going to an interview — that's what I've found, but I'm still hopeful that I can discover a way :)
14:55:45
beach
Josh_2: They stick to the same language category. If they program in (say) C++, they don't try out a language with automatic memory management, or a dynamic language. They assume all languages are basically the same. They don't analyze their mistakes to improve in the future.
14:56:07
p_l
when outside of FAANG 10 years of experience tends to not get you anything better than if you had 3y of experience....
14:57:13
p_l
for example, I'm starting to get why first three rungs of hierarchy at Google involve "promoted or out"
14:57:18
Oladon_work
But my experience with them thus far is (limited, but) that they all drink the Kool-Aid and think they've been working with "the best of the best" at <company>
14:57:50
dlowe
Oladon_work: just because the best people work at a place doesn't mean you're one of them
14:57:55
Oladon_work
For one, it means that if you saw something not working at <company>, it can't possibly work anywhere
14:58:30
p_l
Oladon_work: people who end up at FAANG straight from uni where they didn't do much work outside of coursework are worst
14:59:01
p_l
Oladon_work: OTOH, I figure it's exactly why L3 and L4 (with new grads starting at L3) aren't levels you can stay at at Google
14:59:06
dlowe
I can't imagine the warped perspective that would come from being hired right from education
14:59:30
Oladon_work
I'm looking forward to when I can afford to hire promising juniors and train them up myself (well, I and my team)
15:00:00
Oladon_work
In the meantime, I'm stuck looking for really good _actual_ senior developers... and finding people who think they're "senior" because they've been doing it for 2 years.
15:02:33
beach
Josh_2: I often give talks to people who have been working for many years with software development. But they have no idea about the difference between static and dynamic languages, and they have no clue how a static memory allocator works, nor how automatic memory management works. They know nothing about compiler design, so they have no clue about the relationship between the code they write and what ends up being executed by the
15:03:43
beach
So they think that a dynamic language has to be interpreted, and they think manual memory management has no cost and no pauses, whereas they think that automatic memory management is expensive and gives long pauses.
15:05:55
schweers
beach: please tell me that at least the part of not knowing about the differnce in static and dynamic languages is hyperbole.
15:07:04
beach
schweers: They sometimes know about the difference between static and dynamic *typing*, but I am talking about the separation (or no separation) between compile time and run time.
15:15:22
schweers
I still find an idea that Steve Yegge put forth at some time quite interesting. According to him, many programmers only know a single language (or few languages which are very similar to each other). They think that learning a second language will be as hard as learing the first. During this time they will be unproductive and hence they fear for their livelihood.
15:16:17
Oladon_work
The second language (as with human languages) is generally _almost_ as hard as the first, minus the concepts you learn the first time around which aren't language-specific
15:16:38
Oladon_work
The thing I encounter a lot is people who claim to know multiple languages, but write them all as if they're the same
15:16:45
ecraven
Oladon_work: ah, but aren't those concepts very close for most mainstream languages?
15:17:04
beach
schweers: I don't think most developers even think that much about what they know and what they should learn.
15:18:20
Oladon_work
ecraven: Those concepts don't have to be re-learned when learning a second language — but they also aren't technically part of learning the first language
15:19:03
schweers
Learning a new language is also not a thing you do while dropping everything else, although it does help to have proper time and attention for this task.
15:19:49
beach
schweers: I tell the industry people I give talk to, to take 4 hours per week for self study.
15:20:47
beach
If their manager does not allow that, then the manager does not have the best interest of the company and its stakeholders in mind.
15:22:09
schweers
I mean: why did the company ask you to give that talk in the first place? They could have enjoyed the food without you :D
15:22:21
beach
schweers: I also tell them that there is such a huge difference in productivity between developers and that this difference is so hard to measure, that nobody will notice that they work on their own stuff 4 hours per week.
15:22:55
beach
schweers: Usually because their is a company-wide policy to organize talks, and someone knew me.
15:24:06
schweers
So the people who decide to ask you for a talk, and the people who should follow your advice are different people. This kind of makes sence, in a sad way.
15:25:11
beach
Often the people organizing the talks are admin or management people with no training in software.
15:25:38
beach
They do ask the participants for feedback, which is why I get invited back regularly.
15:26:01
Oladon_work
Also, we like to convince ourselves we're "doing stuff" by listening to people tell us to do stuff.
15:26:57
beach
As a professor, I have gotten used to that a talk or a lecture is understood by around 10% of the participants. But that's better than 0.
15:28:45
schweers
Is is actually a normal thing that professors give talks at private companies? My employer is quite small, so I guess we won’t enjoy this luxury (also I’ve only been working in industry for 2 years).
15:30:23
beach
I don't know how common it is. I am close to retirement, so I do it for fun. And I only require that I not lose money, so I just ask for the travel and the hotel room to be reimbursed or paid for.
15:30:56
schweers
So booking you isn’t all that expensive for the company, depending on where they are.
15:32:30
beach
One company said their "budget is 1000€" which was plenty to cover travel from Bordeaux to Gothenburg and a few nights of hotel.
15:35:02
beach
I did my military service there, and I spent one summer working as an intern there. :)
16:13:30
jonatack
beach: true, though too many tourists here ATM and then in nine days there's the g7 summit that locks down the whole city/region
16:25:20
Xach
I think the term I want is "callback" - I mean a function passed to another function that may be called with some arguments if that is the agreed-upon protocol
16:28:35
Xach
I do often write docstrings that say something like "FUN must be a function of two arguments that blah blah ..."
16:50:42
scymtym
Xach: in the context of CALL-WITH-* functions accompanying a WITH-* macros, McCLIM uses the term "continuation" which is kind of accurate but also has suboptimal connotations
17:04:43
Josh_2
describe in clos is no longer a thing right? am looking at page 40 of OO pogramming in CL 1989 by Sonya Keene
17:08:12
scymtym
DESCRIBE is an ordinary function whose behavior can be customized by defining methods on DESCRIBE-OBJECT