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11:08:30
shka__
when two initargs are provided for the slot, which one takes the precedence if both are present in the make-instance call?
11:15:18
specbot
Rules for Initialization Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ad.htm
11:40:35
Xach
PuercoPope: sorry about that. i have moved servers and there have been some regressions. I will try to fix asap.
12:18:53
katco
hey all! i'm learning about machine learning, and i was wondering if i'd be able to use CL as i go for prototyping and such. what's the state of ML in the CL space these days? cliki doesn't list many libs.
12:22:33
beach
katco: Common Lisp is a general-purpose language so you can certainly use it where other languages can be used as well.
12:22:51
beach
katco: Common Lisp has many advantages compared to other languages, independently of the domain.
12:23:26
beach
katco: Not many people use Common Lisp these days, including for machine learning, so it might be tricky to find libraries for that particular domain.
12:25:43
katco
i am aware of the unfortunate fact that CL has fell out of favor. and that's why i'm reaching out to the community to see if maybe there's some well-supported cffi bindings to one of the popular ML frameworks, or if anyone has had some success with something like burgled-batteries, or is even growing a well-supported CL framework
12:28:47
heisig
katco: https://github.com/bendudson/py4cl could also be useful for using Python ML libraries from CL.
12:30:48
katco
heisig: i don't use py bindings that much. is this the community-preferred way to consume python?
12:33:32
katco
i am brand new to the ML space, but it looks like tensorflow is working hard to expose all of their bindings via C, so i wonder if cffi might be the preferred way to consume that
12:37:59
katco
yeah, i came across mgl, and it looked interesting. unfortunately i'll be sharing my work with non lispers, so i think i need to be leveraging something they can use/understand in `(not :lisp)`
12:39:23
p_l
which means the pains of Python every time I hit something mentioning ML or one of the many names for applied statistics
12:40:34
heisig
katco: Maybe cl4py (https://github.com/marcoheisig/cl4py) can help you present your Lisp libraries to non-Lispers.
12:55:54
p_l
katco: CFFI to TensorFlow could be done pretty fast, the bigger issue would be that TF C API is, from my understanding, pretty low-level
12:59:38
katco
p_l: that surprises me a little. i assumed since they were putting the c api forth as the way for languages to interop with tf, that it would have the same level of semantics as the py bindings
13:01:11
katco
p_l: ah, i see. well, maybe that's the correct approach? every language has its idioms
13:01:52
p_l
to quote the docs, C API is made for regularity and consistence rather than ease of use
13:07:40
katco
i'm also trying to balance how productive i'd be in CL vs. yak-shaving just so i can use it haha
13:12:11
katco
my understanding is that pytorch is "better" for research, and is preferred by the academic crowd
13:19:53
katco
shka__: yeah? would you mind expounding on that? i'm very open to being influenced atm :)
13:24:08
katco
i was kind of leaning towards tf because it looked like the ops side of things was more production-ready, and the ecosystem was broader
13:34:19
katco
ha! i was also looking at keras because it was suggested that it was good for learning ML
13:59:14
phoe
random news: the CCL binaries with bootstrapped package-local nicknames are now available at CCL's github releases page
15:17:04
saravia
hello, nice to meet you, but, how to install cl-utilities?, please help me and sorry for my bad english
15:18:03
jackdaniel
when you have quicklisp in place, just type in repl (ql:quickload 'cl-utilities)
15:21:57
beach
You could do that, but you need to install Quicklisp first, and you need to load it into your process before you can type the form that jackdaniel showed you.
15:22:43
beach
saravia: But if you are going to work with Common Lisp, we highly recommend you use the Common Lisp system through SLIME.
15:26:13
beach
Your window manager doesn't matter. SLIME is a module for Emacs. It will provide a much better development environment than you can get by using only the terminal.
15:30:42
saravia
ow i see what the RELP is open inside sblc next to run (ql:add-to-init-file) command, no?
15:59:08
PuercoPope
saravia: It is a good idea to run SLIME/SLY with StumpWM. It makes it easier to configure it on the fly as well as debugging any issue you may encounter
16:44:24
mfiano
Fair enough. Since this is such a low level library that is depended on by quite a few pieces of software, and I discovered a bug that breaks the REPL, I guess I'll just be more careful about the dependencies I use.
16:45:09
mfiano
phoe: Where do you see an author here? https://gist.github.com/mfiano/70cf49cd216e8fa170cfd64f8595c5ac
16:46:50
mfiano
I don't know how to fix it. Apparently there is a KLUDGE that is to fix SLIME, but breaks Sly. It explicitly redefines an unexported function in SBCL
16:54:17
scymtym
attila has been responsive in the past when contacted via email. http://dwim.hu has the email address
16:54:32
phoe
and it seems like https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/501075 is the original bug and this is an ugly hack that attempts to fix it
16:58:33
mfiano
Well my attempts to contact attila in the past regarding alexandria have went unsuccessful, so I might just have to rework my stack to rid myself of this mess
17:01:22
phoe
I've commented on https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/501075 with all the information I have right now.
17:03:29
phoe
It's not like this code shouldn't be on quicklisp, it's more like ugly hacks like these spread very quickly and can go unnoticed
17:09:20
mfiano
Actually my utility library depends on arrow-macros, and that in turn is used by all of my software, some of which is used by lots of things such as pngload/opticl/mezanno
17:11:40
mfiano
Actually my pngload changes aren't in the latest dist yet actually, so that might not be true just yet.
17:15:21
mfiano
Soon to be much more actually, once my changes go in which I am now probably going to hold off on pushing.
17:17:25
phoe
mfiano: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1671#issuecomment-485894805
17:19:09
phoe
actually, now I am curious how many Quicklisp projects define something in the internal packages
17:20:19
mfiano
Because that could surely cause future additions not to build, and it wouldn't be the redefining package's problem.
17:20:52
Xach
mfiano: each project is loaded in isolation. it would be interesting to load in combination.
17:21:35
_death
seen in a commit message from 2018-01-26: "I've decided to banish hu.dwim libraries because hu.dwim.asdf redefines SB-KERNEL:LINE-LENGTH and ASDF internals. It may not cause an immediate problem, but is not something I want to depend on."
17:24:06
mfiano
"please hide your comments on the SBCL bug, and i'll also hide mine, to keep that bug on topic."