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0:59:03
python476
I'm reading norvig PAIP, I was curious if there are books of this kind (broadly) written since ?
1:02:13
antoszka
python476: I don't think there's anything exactly like PAIP (with that quality Common Lisp course)
1:10:12
no-defun-allowed
i know of a few research projects in CL being undertaken now, SICL is a CL implementation and Petalisp is a high performance matrix math computing library, and a lot of research in AI and high level languages has been done in Lisps
1:25:28
dmiles
after PAIP i suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Daydreaming-Humans-Machines-Computer-Thought/dp/1478137266
1:28:25
dmiles
also if people are interested in use Lisp of AGI there is my project that is inteded to untoyify PAIP https://github.com/TeamSPoon/CYC_JRTL_with_CommonLisp
1:35:39
Fare
Lisp was not very attractive on 64KB machines, or even 640KB machines. "The language is too large!"
1:54:18
dmiles
i think the prology/data case conventions there were meant to conflict in your mind with the non-data/lisp conventions
2:08:15
dmiles
you might say that computer hardware is finally catching up to what kinds of things we want to do in lisp
2:31:11
loke
svillemot: the problem, IMHO, is that these packages becomes available to any Lisp appliction, not just pgloader (and others which may be packaged in Debian)
2:31:51
loke
These library packages should only be visible to the applications for which they exist (such as pgloader)
5:58:17
dtw
<svillemot "dtw: in Debiar 9, you also have "> Thank you. I am fine with SBCL but it is sometimes useful to test other implementations as well.
7:12:50
svillemot
loke: This is not how distributions work. Sharing libraries between several applications is at the core of the distribution model (for minimizing disk space, propagating security fixes, standardizing on a single system version…)
7:14:18
svillemot
Note that this tension between the system package manager (apt) and the language package manager (QL) is not specific to CL. It also exist with other languages (Python, Ruby, R, …).
7:14:28
loke
svillemot: That runs counter to how Common Lisp development tend to work though. And it's no secret that the current Debian situation causes more problems than it solves.
7:15:01
svillemot
IMHO, both systems are useful and serve different purposes. Developers tend to prefer the language package manager, while sysadmins tend to prefer the system package manager.
7:15:10
no-defun-allowed
Yeah, except for flatpack and other braindead portability kludges, package managers and their respective distributions are designed to decrease duplicate code.
7:17:18
svillemot
loke: I'm happy to help if you can be more specific about the issues with Debian packages. As dim told yesterday, he has improved the situation a lot, and I'm following on his path.
7:17:40
svillemot
For example, in the upcoming Debian 10, all CL packages should be up-to-date and working fine with recent CL implementations.
7:18:42
loke
svillemot: well, personally, the most important thing would be that if you have Quicklisp installed, it should never touch the Debian packages but only use QL, when you have a dependency on, say, alexandria.
7:19:36
xantoz
NixOS has solved the issue pretty neatly. e.g. for python it packages pretty much everything in pip in nixpkgs
7:19:56
svillemot
loke: It's basically an ASDF configuration issue. So you can probably tell QL to do precisely that.
7:20:49
svillemot
But I also like the fact that QL is able to only download packages that are not installed via APT. So ideally this should be a configuration switch.
7:21:03
loke
svillemot: yeah, that's the problem. The people who suffer from this are precisely the people who wouldn't know how to do that.
7:22:21
jackdaniel
in an imaginary lisp system it should be possible to modify the code of a dependency per-application (or per-user) basis, so file-based global installation wouldn't work well with that
7:24:34
svillemot
loke: maybe you could open an issue against QL, asking for a change of the default behavior, i.e. not looking to system directories for ASDF systems by default (but keeping a setting to revert to the previous behavior)
7:25:10
loke
svillemot: I could, but IMHO this is a problem on debian's side, as they are the ones messing up normal system loading.
7:25:36
loke
Also, I'm not a party to either of this. I just observe the current mess and comment on it.
7:25:40
svillemot
I don't see how it "messes": by default ASDF looks to system directories, and distributions are expected to install stuff in system directories
7:27:30
loke
QL doesn't search anywhere exept its own directoris, AFAIK. THis is ASDF we're talking about, no?
7:35:34
svillemot
if I understand correctly, QL adds its own directory to ASDF search path, and then relies on ASDF for loading systems
7:36:30
svillemot
the problem that you are raising comes from the fact that /usr/share/common-lisp/ is in the default ASDF search path