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20:43:17
svillemot
unfortunately, CCL can not be packaged because for its FFI it basically depends on a obsolete GCC version
20:44:08
svillemot
loke: I confirm that Debian packages for CL libraries are build-dependencies of pgloader, but need not be installed by the end user
20:46:26
svillemot
I'm aware that those packages for CL libraries are not the right fit for many developers, but at least permit having pgloader in Debian
20:47:07
svillemot
recently I have also improved their quality by integrating their testsuites into the CI engine of Debian (i.e. they are tested automatically against SBCL, ECL and sometimes CLISP)
20:49:25
svillemot
e.g. for alexandria: https://ci.debian.net/data/autopkgtest/unstable/amd64/c/cl-alexandria/2000450/log.gz
21:38:32
pjb
(let ((v (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 5 :initial-element 0)) (a (make-array '(2 2 3) :initial-element 0))) (list (list (length v) (fill-pointer v) (array-total-size v) (array-dimension v 0) (array-dimensions v)) (list (array-total-size a) (array-dimension a 0) (array-dimensions a)))) #| --> ((5 5 10 10 (10)) (12 2 (2 2 3))) |#
0:59:03
python476
I'm reading norvig PAIP, I was curious if there are books of this kind (broadly) written since ?
1:02:13
antoszka
python476: I don't think there's anything exactly like PAIP (with that quality Common Lisp course)
1:10:12
no-defun-allowed
i know of a few research projects in CL being undertaken now, SICL is a CL implementation and Petalisp is a high performance matrix math computing library, and a lot of research in AI and high level languages has been done in Lisps
1:25:28
dmiles
after PAIP i suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Daydreaming-Humans-Machines-Computer-Thought/dp/1478137266
1:28:25
dmiles
also if people are interested in use Lisp of AGI there is my project that is inteded to untoyify PAIP https://github.com/TeamSPoon/CYC_JRTL_with_CommonLisp
1:35:39
Fare
Lisp was not very attractive on 64KB machines, or even 640KB machines. "The language is too large!"
1:54:18
dmiles
i think the prology/data case conventions there were meant to conflict in your mind with the non-data/lisp conventions
2:08:15
dmiles
you might say that computer hardware is finally catching up to what kinds of things we want to do in lisp
2:31:11
loke
svillemot: the problem, IMHO, is that these packages becomes available to any Lisp appliction, not just pgloader (and others which may be packaged in Debian)
2:31:51
loke
These library packages should only be visible to the applications for which they exist (such as pgloader)
5:58:17
dtw
<svillemot "dtw: in Debiar 9, you also have "> Thank you. I am fine with SBCL but it is sometimes useful to test other implementations as well.
7:12:50
svillemot
loke: This is not how distributions work. Sharing libraries between several applications is at the core of the distribution model (for minimizing disk space, propagating security fixes, standardizing on a single system version…)
7:14:18
svillemot
Note that this tension between the system package manager (apt) and the language package manager (QL) is not specific to CL. It also exist with other languages (Python, Ruby, R, …).
7:14:28
loke
svillemot: That runs counter to how Common Lisp development tend to work though. And it's no secret that the current Debian situation causes more problems than it solves.
7:15:01
svillemot
IMHO, both systems are useful and serve different purposes. Developers tend to prefer the language package manager, while sysadmins tend to prefer the system package manager.
7:15:10
no-defun-allowed
Yeah, except for flatpack and other braindead portability kludges, package managers and their respective distributions are designed to decrease duplicate code.
7:17:18
svillemot
loke: I'm happy to help if you can be more specific about the issues with Debian packages. As dim told yesterday, he has improved the situation a lot, and I'm following on his path.
7:17:40
svillemot
For example, in the upcoming Debian 10, all CL packages should be up-to-date and working fine with recent CL implementations.