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16:29:27
dim
loke: that's the general situation yes, but I've expanded some efforts into fixing that with my ql-to-deb tool and took care of the 60+ indirect dependencies for pgloader
16:30:12
dim
see https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb and https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=dim@tapoueh.org ; I'm not so active anymore on the debian front, mostly that's svillemot and Myon doing the work now
16:30:41
dim
loke: yeah that's what I do, and then I have pgloader distributed in debian itself, so I had to make it compliant with the debian contract
16:31:15
dim
any software shipped in debian must be buildable from sources all distributed in debian too
16:31:38
dim
I like this guarantee that debian gives its users, and decided to make it happen for pgloader
16:31:41
loke
ah, sure. But that doesn't mean that those external deps have to be actual debian packages
16:32:02
loke
I guess they can be _build_ dependencies, but they shouldn't be something users have to install.
16:32:40
loke
because the existence of those packages is such a nightmare. I've lost count of the time sI've explained to newcomers that they have to get rid of the borken Debian CL library packages.
16:32:45
dim
for the RPM builds, I'm also providing a source tarball that's built with the Quicklisp bundle facility, making it easier and a single source package
16:33:40
dim
ql-to-deb allows to easily grab what's in Quicklisp and update the debian package with that, so that it should be easy enough to update them monthly
16:33:51
loke
perhaps make a single "quicklisp-build-deps" package that is used during build, but an never be directly installed by a user.
16:34:33
dim
some debian users want to install debian packages for their CL libs, I've met some either on IRC or at ELS, but I would not do that either
16:36:14
loke
dim: yes. I'm not saying they don't exist. But I wouldn't be surprised if the number of users who have had problems with it greatly exceeds the number of user who actually want it.
16:36:50
dim
at least I tried to help, I would still use QL for a CL development environment even on debian
20:43:17
svillemot
unfortunately, CCL can not be packaged because for its FFI it basically depends on a obsolete GCC version
20:44:08
svillemot
loke: I confirm that Debian packages for CL libraries are build-dependencies of pgloader, but need not be installed by the end user
20:46:26
svillemot
I'm aware that those packages for CL libraries are not the right fit for many developers, but at least permit having pgloader in Debian
20:47:07
svillemot
recently I have also improved their quality by integrating their testsuites into the CI engine of Debian (i.e. they are tested automatically against SBCL, ECL and sometimes CLISP)
20:49:25
svillemot
e.g. for alexandria: https://ci.debian.net/data/autopkgtest/unstable/amd64/c/cl-alexandria/2000450/log.gz
21:38:32
pjb
(let ((v (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 5 :initial-element 0)) (a (make-array '(2 2 3) :initial-element 0))) (list (list (length v) (fill-pointer v) (array-total-size v) (array-dimension v 0) (array-dimensions v)) (list (array-total-size a) (array-dimension a 0) (array-dimensions a)))) #| --> ((5 5 10 10 (10)) (12 2 (2 2 3))) |#
0:59:03
python476
I'm reading norvig PAIP, I was curious if there are books of this kind (broadly) written since ?
1:02:13
antoszka
python476: I don't think there's anything exactly like PAIP (with that quality Common Lisp course)
1:10:12
no-defun-allowed
i know of a few research projects in CL being undertaken now, SICL is a CL implementation and Petalisp is a high performance matrix math computing library, and a lot of research in AI and high level languages has been done in Lisps
1:25:28
dmiles
after PAIP i suggest: https://www.amazon.com/Daydreaming-Humans-Machines-Computer-Thought/dp/1478137266
1:28:25
dmiles
also if people are interested in use Lisp of AGI there is my project that is inteded to untoyify PAIP https://github.com/TeamSPoon/CYC_JRTL_with_CommonLisp
1:35:39
Fare
Lisp was not very attractive on 64KB machines, or even 640KB machines. "The language is too large!"
1:54:18
dmiles
i think the prology/data case conventions there were meant to conflict in your mind with the non-data/lisp conventions
2:08:15
dmiles
you might say that computer hardware is finally catching up to what kinds of things we want to do in lisp
2:31:11
loke
svillemot: the problem, IMHO, is that these packages becomes available to any Lisp appliction, not just pgloader (and others which may be packaged in Debian)
2:31:51
loke
These library packages should only be visible to the applications for which they exist (such as pgloader)