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15:55:51
beach
random-nick: There is usually no point in asking "why" in such situations. This is true both for programming languages and natural languages. At some point, there was a mysterious consensus that one was better than the other. That's all there is to it usually.
15:57:00
beach
random-nick: Why is it called "tooth brush" but "dental floss" in English? Why not "dental brush" and "tooth floss"?
15:59:27
beach
random-nick: You also have define-compiler-macro, define-method-combination, define-modify-macro, define-setf-expander, define-symbol-macro.
16:01:29
jackdaniel
random-nick: one (made up) reason could be, that defun and defmacro were heritage from older lisps, while "modern" way for naming macros when CL was standarized was using define-* and the were to add conditions to the language
16:02:55
jackdaniel
random-nick: I've given you a made up excuse, there could be others. I wouldn't bother with figuring that out
16:03:04
jackdaniel
there are more annoying inconsistencies in CL, like argument order in aref and gethash for that instance
16:05:30
jackdaniel
I haven't seen even one project which would use CL21; I've only seen people praising or ignoring it ;-)
16:05:46
jmercouris
I've never used it, simply because the problems it addresses don't bother me enough
16:25:13
jackdaniel
or if I use named-readtables and I have #f as lambda dispatch - is it inconsistent?
16:25:25
pjb
(and there is unfortunately a lot of code that is not conforming: that is dependent on specificities of eg. sbcl).
16:31:02
JuanDaugherty
without expecting them to debug or develop around shortcomings/lack of completion in CLIM
16:31:51
JuanDaugherty
the why not is because some years ago it was not in that state, at least as far as use with sbcl
16:31:53
jackdaniel
usually writing complete applications requires some debugging and developing around shortcomings of used libraries. if that's your definition then it is not production ready ;)
16:33:37
jackdaniel
well, that depends then solely on the programmer. if he exposes interfaces which allow corruping application from the end-user point of view, then they will be able to corrupt it. but I truly don't think it is any library-specific problem, just a matter of testing and programming / qa effort
16:35:20
jackdaniel
what's based on use of it? I've stated an opinion about all software above, not CLIM particularily
16:36:45
jackdaniel
biggest shortcomming one could find is that McCLIM depends on X server running currently to have something displayed on the screen
16:38:00
jackdaniel
limitation is more painful when you consider distribution for Windows or OSX - that requires installing X-server by hand
16:50:41
jmercouris
and consider also the fact that cl21 has changes to the way you deal with hashes, etc
16:51:16
_death
CL is a product of a variety of traditions, languages, people.. it is not a theoretical ideal of a single mind, so inconsistencies are expected. that "CL21" thing is one person's (abandoned?) take on how things should be, with its own inconsistencies and oddities.. its name was not well chosen
16:52:58
_death
so if you flip "CL21" in your mind to "SOMEGUYSLISP" you'll see that there's no real reason to even mention it
16:59:23
JuanDaugherty
ACTION took a bbc quiz to find 'your secret nationality' and it came out Romanian
17:01:40
JuanDaugherty
my impression is that caveats aside, if you are reasonably conscientious about explicitly invoking gc in sbcl it's not really a performance hit
17:14:18
JuanDaugherty
ACTION now, having tried the demo, understands what was meant about X being at issue
17:16:25
JuanDaugherty
fwiw, jackdaniel 1974 was a lot like 2018 with appropriate substitutions, e.g. 'nixon' for 'trump'
17:23:27
asarch
"The following restarts are available: SKIP :R1 skip (IN-PACKAGE ASDF-USER), RETRY :R2 retry (IN-PACKAGE ASDF-USER), ..., Break 1 ASDF0[5]>"
17:47:06
beach
flip214: I'll forward the congrats to my (admittedly small) family. She is a French citizen.
17:48:18
beach
flip214: Unless, of course, you meant to congratulate me for having a near-complete version of the specification if the SICL garbage collectors of course.
18:28:15
jackdaniel
or, even better, provide one system for core McCLIM system and a few other for extensions / applications / demos
19:35:24
JuanDaugherty
as far the confusion, it was only at the point of looking at what ql offerred in re "CLIM" and by intuition I made the right choice
19:52:20
jeosol
what is the better way to run a lisp code remotely?. I will be away soon, but I can ssh to the linux box. I don't have executables created right now. I am aware of nohup but then I need to create some script? non?
19:53:03
jeosol
I wanted to see if you guys do something special, or the old, normal linux way is okay
19:56:13
JuanDaugherty
i think ur supposed to just be able to use shebang in sbcl but I've never tried it
20:03:14
jeosol
ok, I need to give this some thought since I'm still testing. for now, I just create new functions (to test new options) and just run it after loading.
21:27:15
jmercouris
jeosol: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html
23:44:52
White_Flame
jeosol: you can also just ssh -X into your remote box and launch emacs, to bring up a remote environment on your screen
23:45:31
White_Flame
while it's simple, it can hurt though if you drop your connection at an inopportune time
23:50:24
equwal
I used to do remote lisp programming to keep logs of IRC. TRAMP works really well once you get it setup and move past the learning cure: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TrampMode. Also, there is no input lag, and no risk of data loss.
23:59:02
equwal
The basic idea is it seamlessly sets up your buffers to download, be edited, and upload when you do normal file-open and save commands in emacs.
3:16:01
loke
So odd... It was pointed out on #emacs that CLHS doesn't seem to specify what the default comparator for FIND is. I know it's EQL, but where does it actually say so in the CLHS?
3:19:00
Lord_Nightmare
has anyone considered making a more updated spec for common lisp than the 1988 one? how would one even create a commitee to do that?
3:19:24
specbot
Satisfying a One-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_bb.htm