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6:16:00
drmeister
I'm just becoming hip to how well docker works with Common Lisp. Say you have a lot of ASDF systems and you have a slowish compiler - just build everything in a docker container and ship it. Compiled asdf systems are all bundled up with it.
7:31:58
fourier
probably you can roll out something on basis of c-mera for C. otherwise maybe SWIG could help, design API in C and generate all bindings for all languages you want via SWIG
7:35:32
fourier
why limit yourself, there are tons of corner cases which were already solved in swig. and to prepare truly portable api better to start with C anyway I believe
7:36:27
fourier
but it would be awesome to have some generator in CL I must admit.. c-mera is a good step forward but to low-level imho
7:37:03
jmercouris
definitely, lots of corner cases, and supporting each language will be a huge pain for sure
7:40:17
jmercouris
admittedely, the domain I'm trying to solve is far simpler and would be something like what swagger provides
7:43:43
jmercouris
anyways, generating the classes, functions, etc for the API will still not be trivial, but at least easier than library APIs
11:16:06
adlai
would the correct term for 'ware such as XCVB be "kamikazeware", since it ultimately never went anywhere itself, but strengthened what remnained?
11:16:57
adlai
or perhaps, chickenware - last library standing eats the one that falls by the wayside.
14:12:05
soma1257
Hi beautiful lisp community! Today I'm here for a career advice. Currently I'm making 669.97usd/month after taxes as a full time erlang programmer. And I'm starting to get sick and I can't pay for doctors, nothing terrible, i *believe* is just food deficiency. I would love to make 1k-1.5k/usd month working remotely, and i don't care how many hours or day i should work to get that.
14:12:05
soma1257
What i want from you guys is some advice, What market should i focus in? Where can i find a better job? Is any real chance for a remote job for a normal programmer?
14:48:54
jeosol
I happy to say my cl-application is somewhat stable now, but my local 64gb box with 32 jobs in parallel is using all my memory, will have to get something online
15:06:49
phoe
jackdaniel: I just stumbled upon the handler-case thing that you were talking about some time ago.
15:21:19
Shinmera
I don't want to reveal too much because that would spoil the surprise. But if you want to get spoiled, I talk about my plans (and show the development) on my Treehouse streams. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkDl6Irujx9MtJPRRP5KBH40SGCenztPW
15:36:11
phoe
jcowan: not anymore, I think. I've already raged a little too much over the quality of their code.
15:38:46
jcowan
Out of curiosity, does anyone know what CL is used for at Google? When I was there (2007-10) it was no more than a rumor and a style guide.
15:41:14
jcowan
I note that the published Intercal style guide ends in "When to use Intercal: Only if you absolutely have to! Good grief, has it really come to this?"
15:44:10
pjb
soma1257: the only career advise we could give you is to follow Paul Graham's steps: start up a company, write a nice web app in clisp, well your startup to yahoo or google for $100+M, become venture capitalist.
15:44:41
pjb
shka: win obfuscation contests, ensure long term employment, answer silly questions, and more.
15:45:31
pjb
soma1257: but if you want to earm more money, learn kotlin or swift and write mobile apps, it's where the easy money is nowadays.
16:13:50
rpg
aeth, Shinmera: you can build a lisp image with ASDF for delivery as an application. I think there's enough difference between systems that ASDF will *not* build you a command-line executable. It will get pretty close, though.
16:14:42
rpg
drmeister: I've used dribble in non-interactive experiments, or experiments that produce a truckload of output that I need to grovel over later.
16:15:09
rpg
Typically only for not-so-well structured systems where I don't want to bother figuring out how to redirect output myself.
16:16:05
rpg
Shinmera: But I thought the question was about executable delivery, for which source delivery is not necessary, and might even be A Bad Thing.
16:16:37
Shinmera
I think aeth wanted to have things as a single source file for better optimisation.
16:17:14
Shinmera
As for binary deployments using ASDF, I think it's currently the best way to create deployments for Lisp applications.
16:18:43
jcowan
ACTION mourns the loss of Interlisp culture with its image/logfile program representation
16:24:30
rpg
jcowan: ? You can still build images for your programs. It's not clear what are the limits on shipping them around, though, because of possible incompatibilities with shared libraries where you deploy.
16:24:58
rpg
Or do you mean something like Smalltalk, with its "there is no source file" philosophy?
16:26:59
rpg
I had to work with some code from... that expert systems vendor -- I think an outgrowth of LMI or possibly symbolics -- they had no source files. I really hated it, because they used it to chain you to them
16:29:54
jcowan
(I worked for a while with Lyric, the first full implementation of CL-IL coexistence)
16:31:32
rpg
I can't imagine working without `diff`, imperfect though it is. Or the ability to work with git. Using jupyter now, which has a similar feature (bug?)
16:34:01
jcowan
It's clear from reading the JLS that the Java people expected classes to be stored in a database in production, rather than in the file system.
16:36:10
beach
rpg: Things like diff and git sort of work, but only because we represent everything as text. And even then, it doesn't work that well. It would be interesting to investigate how similar tools could be created for more complex data like structured documents, graphs, etc.
16:38:36
beach
rpg: But you are right of course. Given that we do not have any tools that work on more complex objects, then it is hard to imagine doing without those tools today.
16:39:14
rpg
beach: Agreed, but I am pessimistic since how long has there been microsoft word? And I still can't put a word document in git and track modfications.
16:40:47
pagnol
is there a way to just export/publish everything when defining a package with defpackage?
16:41:35
shka
pagnol: you CAN iterate over all symbols in package and export but i have no idea why would you want to do that
16:42:56
jcowan
you could write some git porcelain that unpacks .docx/.pptx/etc., which is basically zipped XML, and store the individual files, reassembling them on checkout.
16:43:07
fourier
but it is self contained and you just give someone else a file and he will read these modifications
16:43:11
jdz
fourier: the "track changes" thing does not exactly work when different people do changes independently.
16:43:14
rpg
my colleagues all make horrible directories with my-final-report-v287.docx and similar snot in them.
16:44:51
fourier
for simultanious access ms invented sharepoint. so everyone who is workng with management documents has to use it in big corps...
16:44:53
rpg
jcowan: It's not that, it's because they can't easily pull out old versions to diff them: it's easier to leave all the versions around and use compare revisions.
16:45:21
rpg
jcowan: My company is (a) not hierarchical and (b) staffed substantially with CS Ph.D.s who are just fine with tree structured directories, thank you very much
16:46:41
rpg
but this is a big detour from talking about interlisp and smalltalk! Just my explanation for why languages with no file representation scare me!
16:47:16
fourier
rpg: not really, it has a lot of stuff, but what I've used it is to work with the documents simultaniously with other managers. so they were normal doc and excel documents, just with versions, checkin/checkout like in vcs
16:47:21
jcowan
I have in fact taken Word documents, unzipped them as described, made global changes to styling, rezipped them, et voila.
16:59:16
jcowan
beach: I note that the beginning of that document says Unix was designed to run without an MMU, but this is not true
17:03:05
cgay
ACTION is just throwing out the name of a random expert systems provider related to Symbolics and no specific knowledge of their lack of source files or lack of lack of source files, as the case may be.
17:03:27
pjb
jcowan: it's true that early unices could run without a MMU, and the first one didn't have one. THe PDP-7 didn't have a MMU, and The 11/20 lacks any kind of memory protection hardware unless retrofitted with a KS-11 memory mapping add-on.
17:20:15
pjb
rpg: the problem is that files are sequences of bytes (or at best, sequences of characters); therefore diff provides you with a difference in characters, which is not meaningful for software development purposes. Then you have all kind of problems, such as commits with only indentation changes, or worse, commits mixing indentation changes and semantic modifications.
17:21:08
pjb
rpg: I'm not saying that a system built on structured code "data bases" would be better, but it has at least an opportunity to make it better. At least, indentation is left to the pretty printer…