freenode/#lisp - IRC Chatlog
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9:30:14
aeth
Nothing stops you from making money with CL, you just have to do something where people don't care about the implementation language.
9:44:49
phoe
I'm slowly warming other people around me to the idea of including an ABCL in our product.
9:45:23
phoe
I am still curious how far I can push the environment of a JBoss with Java Enterprise from inside an ABCL image.
9:46:00
phoe
Right now they tolerate me writing and hacking Lisp in between work tasks, which is a step in a good direction.
9:48:24
phoe
I'm curious, because if I figure out a way to interactively call Java in a JEE environment, then I essentially get a REPL for free in our product.
9:49:32
phoe
It's a bit more complicated, because it's a cluster of several JBoss servers on different machines and not just a single JVM, but if I ever figure that out, then I'll essentially have material for a nice paper.
9:52:29
pjb
beach: http://dpnonline.com/employers/articles/job-descriptions-and-functions-butler-house-manager
9:59:21
pjb
I avoid orthographic correctors, because they usually get it wrong. Also, there are often multiple valid orthographs (eg. American English vs. British English or variants in French).
10:00:29
pjb
Oh, and also because their substitutions are often way worse than simple orthographic errors.
10:17:59
TMA
phoe: JEE is tricky because of all the nested classloaders isolating everything from everything else; the clojure folks made an awesome remote repl called nREPL for clojure. I am not sure, but it could probably be ported to ABCL so that the client need not be rewritten
13:05:57
jmercouris
there are some things in my directory that I'd rather not have to recreate is all
13:06:40
jmercouris
I was playing around with sbcl yesterday, and I "installed" quicklisp in sbcl, and that has made some issues for CCL I believe
13:07:12
Shinmera
That doesn't sound right. Multiple implementations can use the same quicklisp directory.
13:07:52
jmercouris
I'm not sure exactly why that is, possibly because I did a dist update while in sbcl, then went back to ccl
13:13:22
jackdaniel
right now they are warnings, but nobody knows what they will be in next asdf version
13:20:22
pjb
jmercouris: there are actually at least two circumstances when you load your system: 1- you load your system to compile and check it while developping and testing it. 2- you load your system to use it.
13:21:15
pjb
jmercouris: even in the second case, it may be useful to have warnings, because the developers may have loaded on some version of some implementation and found no errors and no warning, but then you're using it in a new version or another implementation, and those warning could matter a lot.
13:22:10
pjb
jmercouris: if ArianeEspace engineers had had a warning about the Ariane3 module loaded into the Ariane5 system that used a different type of lateral acceleration, they would have saved a rocket and 2 satellites!
13:23:24
jmercouris
pjb: Right yeah, I don't have issues with warnings, it's just that on my own system at least, I'd hope that the warnings don't exist
13:31:50
beach
This is how Second Climacs computes the indentation for LOCALLY http://metamodular.com/locally.png
13:47:25
jmercouris
beach: basically depending on how deep you are in the indentation/nest it'll color boxes to the gutter
13:47:38
jmercouris
so a 1st level indentation might be red, second might be green, and so on and so forth
13:49:20
beach
Sounds like a great project for someone who would like to make a contribution. But it must wait until I have more infrastructure available.
13:51:59
jmercouris
and definitely, you don't want to have to build out every possible theoretical extension
13:52:32
jmercouris
in some ways are projects are very similar and very different, obviously our approaches and technologies are radically different, but we are both trying to build platforms
13:56:01
phoe
If yes, then you can take (mod depth 6) and style each paren according to one of six colors. Boom, rainbow parens.
13:56:49
beach
Probably. I don't much like to emphasize parentheses myself, but it could be another contributed project.
13:59:11
jmercouris
phoe: if all people were really similar, and all needs could be met with a single editor, then likely a dominant paradigm would emerge
13:59:53
phoe
it emerged, it's called an Integrated Development Environment and it's used for languages like C or Java or C#.
14:01:32
beach
jmercouris: You seem to think that people make decisions because they are rational. They aren't.
14:01:57
jmercouris
yes, that's definitely true, otherwise I wouldn't have picked up lisp, or a browser project
14:31:09
pjb
It would be more useful to colorize the parentheses according to their interpretation by the evaluator: operator application (3 kinds), code syntax, data.
14:39:57
pjb
and then, with enough colour, we could also distinguish accessors from normal functions.
14:54:01
comborico1611
Hello. I'm interested in learning Lisp, but I'd like to see how a certain simple program would work in Lisp. The program converts an input of seconds into Years Days Hours Minutes Seconds.
14:56:51
jmercouris
I wonder what happened with that other guy pjb was helping, did he pass his assignment?
14:59:01
beach
comborico1611: I think I am with loke here. If your purpose is really to learn Common Lisp, then ask some specific questions, and we will answer.
15:00:33
jmercouris
alternatively, describe what you think the steps should be to convert your input to your desired result
15:00:49
comborico1611
Beach, I'm wanting to see this little program *before* i decide to learn the language. But if i have no takers, i will attempt to write it, then come back to see if i did it in a concise manner
15:00:52
Bike
https://pastebin.com/DgpGhrbp i don't think this is very informative about how lisp works
15:04:34
comborico1611
Beach, you suggest i don't learn it because i want to see an example of code first? (I think i found the grumpy one of the group.). Your name is quite fitting.
15:05:00
jmercouris
comborico1611: I don't think it's that, it just seems very much like fishing for a homework problem
15:05:18
jmercouris
comborico1611: If you really wanted to learn the language you'd be willing to look at just about any example of any type as long as it teaches something about the language
15:05:51
jmercouris
comborico1611: unless you presume that you can predict which kinds of functions will be the most illustrative of the langauges techniques and strengths without knowing the language
15:05:59
comborico1611
If i suspect this particular problem is well-suited to demonstrate the aspects of a language, I would prefer to use that one program as an example. Not just any program.
15:07:09
comborico1611
If the person has a limited amount of knowledge in programming, but his work with one program, namely the seconds program, then that program example is best for them to understand other languages, without investing time in learning the language first.
15:07:20
Bike
i'm not sure what would be informative as to the nature of the language, but i don't think this is it
15:07:41
jmercouris
comborico1611: let's start with a different approach, what is your motivation for learning programming languages, and what would you hope to get out of learning lisp?
15:07:41
beach
comborico1611: You can take our collective word for it. Common Lisp is worth learning.
15:07:58
_death
comborico1611: this channel is not to convince people to learn lisp, it's for people already interested in lisp
15:08:51
comborico1611
Bike, with your understanding of programming, you are correct this wouldn't be a good demonstration of the nature of the language. But with someone with limited knowledge working on the same sample code that they've done in other languages, is the appropriate choice.
15:09:03
pjb
comborico1611: it's not a question of knowing lisp or even programming. It's a question of having brains, and booting it.
15:09:55
comborico1611
Pjb, I've written the code in another language. I just don't want to take the time to read a few chapters in a book to just see the sample code.
15:10:29
White_Flame
comborico1611: this is like a C programmer asking how you get the length of a string in Python, but not wanting to use the builtin
15:10:46
comborico1611
Beach, I'm very aware that lisp is a great programming language. I am a die-hard Emacs user. I'll be at not good enough to use the customization that elisp provides..
15:11:31
beach
comborico1611: Oh, you want to learn Emacs Lisp. Wrong channel. This one is dedicated to Common Lisp.
15:12:17
pjb
comborico1611: for a quick intro, have a look at http://clisp.hg.sourceforge.net/hgweb/clisp/clisp/raw-file/tip/doc/LISP-tutorial.txt or http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf
15:12:30
jmercouris
and it's tailor made for an obsolete instruction set on an experimental chip from the 60s
15:12:47
comborico1611
Beach, no no. I'm looking for common lisp. I know lisp is the most powerful language. And cl the most powerful dialect.
15:13:50
comborico1611
Jmercouris, thanks. I'm using voice recognition. But i appreciate the thoughtfulness.
15:13:57
pjb
comborico1611: if you want an example of a lisp program, have a look at https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/gsharp/gsharp
15:14:54
comborico1611
It would be more useful if I saw an example of a program I've worked with. And I've only work with one program in my life. A program that converts seconds in 2 years months days hours minutes seconds.
15:15:32
jmercouris
comborico1611: you make it sound like you've been toiling your whole life on this one program, I imagine it is the best seconds converter in the world
15:15:41
pjb
comborico1611: also, I'd be curious about my adjective. Feel free to identify the seven dwarfs ;-)
15:16:34
jmercouris
"I've only worked on one program my whole life, but this one, let me tell you, this is the fastest, most lightweight seconds to date converter ver"
15:17:18
White_Flame
comborico1611: I would suggest simply learning Common Lisp. Forget your date example. You don't really have the grounding yet to make comparison evaluations; learn Lisp to at least get that foundation established
15:18:25
jmercouris
There is one good thing about learning lisp as your first language, none of the terms will confuse you
15:18:59
comborico1611
True. I've read OO what's in a name. I didn't understand most of it, but i liked it.
15:19:48
jmercouris
why did you keep reading a book if you didn't understand it? and how did you like it if you didn't understand it?
15:22:45
jmercouris
pjb: the problem is, we don't have enough Grumpy spots for all the people on #lisp
15:22:50
White_Flame
comborico1611: it's a very clever solution that has a generic numeric breakdown that can take any list of modulos
15:23:15
pjb
comborico1611: it was written more than 10 years ago, and it is used to generate the code of Babylonian or Aztec number systems too.
15:24:26
pjb
More recently, of Indian's since they use strange grouping of tens for their big numbers (1000 100 100 100 …)
15:24:42
White_Flame
so you could plug in 100 at the end of the list and add centuries to your breakdown, for example
15:25:33
comborico1611_
jmercouris, that is insane. I'm glad you mentioned that. I doubt my request needs every aspect of that code then.
15:26:06
comborico1611_
Then I'll show you code. Oh wwait. I'm not acomputer. So I can just show you the code.
15:28:57
White_Flame
I'd still repeat that you'd be way better off simply going through Lisp tutorials and not focus in on something like this.
15:32:08
comborico1611
Something wrong with computer. Rebooting. Can't remember password. All i have at the moment is a functional version.
15:33:44
comborico1611
It is a shame how many programming languages have borrowed from Lisp, and don't give it credit.
15:36:23
comborico1611_
This is the functional version -- not my preferred one. I'm nt even sure this one works.
15:36:57
comborico1611_
Still trying to rmember stupid ghitjp password -- just let me have a simple password
15:39:51
comborico1611_
Here is proper seconds program, I believe. https://gist.github.com/COMBORICO
15:43:14
comborico1611_
It should be very easy to write up in Lisp. I'd just like to see it in Lisp for myself, without having to read a few chapters more than I have already.
15:45:39
beach
I usually help people when I think it might be a good investment, i.e. that the person I help will later contribute to the common code base. I don't have that impression in this case.
15:46:15
White_Flame
again, just go do some basic lisp tutorials, and you'll have enough to figure this out on your own. Or, start using the builtin decode time function
15:46:29
comborico1611_
beach, that's fine. I don't claim that I would do that. Just a guy looking to see a sample of this code in this language.
15:46:33
jmercouris
comborico1611_: What are you asking for exactly? if you want to learn lisp, just learn it, if you encounter issues in the path of learning we can help
15:47:08
jmercouris
comborico1611_: don't just ask people to randomly write up functions for your amusement, have some respect for people's time
15:47:15
comborico1611_
jmercouris, again for the fifth or more time. I'm just looking to see a sample code of how this task would be done in CL.
15:48:04
comborico1611_
jmercouris, asking for a simple program to be written by someone affluent in a language doesn't seem disrespectful of someone's time.
15:48:11
White_Flame
Lisp doesn't look like other languages, so whatever introduction you've had before isn't going to help you read Lisp
15:48:29
jmercouris
yes it totally does, because you are ignoring what everyone is telling you, that it is a waste of time
15:48:42
White_Flame
comborico1611: there are already tons of resources to help you learn. You're trying to bypass them for no defensible reason
15:48:43
jackdaniel
this looks very much like you have an assignment from uni (or wherever) and you think that you will "outsmart" people on lisp by asking them to write it for you (with some improbable excuse)
15:49:51
comborico1611_
This is terribly simple code. I just want to see a sample of it, inspect how I feel the language is reflected by the code *before* I commit time to learning a language.
15:50:33
jmercouris
I don't speak for everyone here, but I think I have a good pulse of what many are thinking
15:50:38
White_Flame
"show me written Chinese before I learn the language, and I'll use that to decide whether or not I want to learn it, because there's a lot I can intuit from it"
15:50:56
comborico1611_
jmercouris, you have a reading comprehension problem. I detailed before the reason I preferred this specific example.
15:51:17
jmercouris
I don't have a reading problem, you simply don't know how to program in any langauge, so I don't see how that would help you even if it were true
15:51:20
White_Flame
you've see multiple examples, you've seen multiple tutorials. your question repetition is pointing that somethign else is wrong
15:51:29
comborico1611_
jmercouris says "you are ignoring what everyone is telling you". sounds like you rpresent everyone
15:51:57
comborico1611_
jmercouris, you hurt my feelings. I'm not able to program blah blah blah lanague blah blah. I'm done with you, loser.
15:52:22
jackdaniel
actually he assessed your attitude based on your reactions to what others do (he didn't mention "others" internal motives / feelings)
15:52:37
jmercouris
comborico1611_: I don't think hurting your feelings makes me a loser, but that's not what I'm after, I'm just trying to help, maybe I did the wrong approach, sorry for that
15:53:45
pjb
comborico1611_: the first macro generated a function that looped over the bases list; instead, the new solution expand to the truncate calls like Bike's solution.