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23:45:28
phoe
making the smallest and most efficient water filters versus Brainfuck/CL interoperability:
23:46:48
aeth
phoe: Brainfuck is actually a very useful language because it is a tiny, well-defined language. Something like cl-scheme would never actually be a complete project, so it can't actually test features that require a literally complete project.
23:49:02
aeth
pillton: There's the difference between completing something and having something 100% complete. A very tiny language with a very tiny standard could actually be complete. Probably could even be formally proven.
23:50:32
aeth
phoe: Very small programs can be proven that they meet their specification. Something like a CL implementation probably cannot.
23:51:49
aeth
Correct with respect to a specification, if it halts (obviously, the halting problem is a problem).
23:52:35
jasom
ugh; updated nix disallows md5 as a hash for verifying URLs it fetches... time to calculate sha sums of all of quicklisp :(
23:58:22
aeth
jasom: Can axioms really be incorrect, or is it more of an issue of whether or not an axiom is useful?
23:59:42
pillton
There is an example in Mark Tarver's book Logic, Proof and Computation where the proposed logic system had an incorrect axiom.
0:00:25
aeth
Afaik, math is only wrong if there is an error in a proof, or if there's the standard philosophical skepticism arguments of e.g. you could just be dreaming, etc. But other than that, math is pretty certain, and it's really when we try to apply it when things get messy.
0:01:32
aeth
pillton: But is that kind of axiom incorrect, or does it merely make all results useless?
0:03:37
aeth
Logic, afaik, belongs to three academic disciplines. Philosophy, computer science, and mathematics.
0:06:25
jasom
aeth: people debated e.g. if the axiom of choice was correct or not, for certain definitions of "correct"
0:09:21
phoe
but if you chose that it's incorrect, then it means you couldn't have chosen it because of the axiom of choice is incorrect
0:09:35
jasom
and wikipedia says "Whether it is meaningful (and, if so, what it means) for an axiom, or any mathematical statement, to be "true" is an open question[citation needed] in the philosophy of mathematics.[5]"
0:11:59
aeth
jasom: If I were suddenly to find myself with a billion dollars, getting a PhD in the philosophy of mathematics is something I'd consider doing. It sounds like a very interesting field that no one outside of academia would take seriously due to its lack of practicality.
0:13:21
phoe
aeth: don't tell me you wouldn't spend a few kilobucks to getting a working CL Brainfuck environment
0:15:45
aeth
I think the main question is, when dealing with the foundations of mathematics, how meta can you get?
0:40:30
jasom
well I have to eat dinner; rebuilding the releases.cdb with sha256 sum instead of md5 made quicklisp unhappy; I'll have to figure out a better way to do this later.
3:35:32
whoman
aeth, White_Flame, ahh, i see =) also, interesting ideas. racket does some way to handle multiple 'languages'
4:10:25
aeth
(Alternatively, there may be many considerably better ideas, but we're all stuck thinking in the current trends.)
4:35:33
jasom
hmm quicklisp generates a database from a text file, but it also sometimes reads directly from the text file.
5:08:42
drmeister
Is gitlab.common-lisp.net a standard common lisp repository? I'm trying to pull asdf but it seems to be down.
7:13:38
jasom
ah, lparallel is wonderful. I added parallelization to something I had never designed to be parallel in about 30 minutes.
8:46:39
beach
devon: McCLIM is actively being worked on. We hang out in #clim in case you need help, or in case you feel like contributing.
9:10:56
schweers
is mcclim really omni-platform (I like the term)? I tried it on windows once because that was what I had running as I stumbled on it, and the demo didn’t work. Was my lisp environment somehow misconfigured (which might very well be the case) or is this a general known issue?
9:12:00
beach
But, as I recall, there is a bounty posted for finishing it in case you need the money.
9:13:43
jackdaniel
running on windows is also possible with running Xserver there (not that it's appealing, just saying its possible)
9:14:18
jackdaniel
there is $500 bounty for windows backend, and $400 for fixing beagle (OSX) backend which is somewhat broken
9:16:10
beach
schweers: Speaking of which, these days I never :USE packages other than the COMMON-LISP package. I use explicit package prefixes for the others. It is much more clear where symbols come from that way, and there is less risk that my software will break when those packages are updated.
9:16:47
jackdaniel
hm, in case of CLIM applications you are encouraged to :use CLIM-LISP package :-)
9:17:40
jackdaniel
schweers: yes, keyboard layout other than us not working is known issue. someone works on that
9:19:49
jackdaniel
we have some constant contributors (who pay monthly around $280) for project development
9:21:25
jackdaniel
I try to send iteration reports each month (usually its more like 40-50 days between reports)
9:22:10
schweers
so, if I’m particularly interested in seeing something fixed I can add my own money to a bounty?
9:23:09
jackdaniel
or you may contribute to McCLIM project itself (https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/mcclim)
9:23:58
jackdaniel
that model proves to be working just fine, we have a steady progress (albeit some may perceive as slow progress)
9:35:05
beach
I have been thinking of crowdfunding SICL as well, but then, I am reminded that the main problem is not money, but qualified contributors with time on their hands.