freenode/#lisp - IRC Chatlog
Search
16:35:13
beach
saganman: Careful, though. When I was teaching undergraduates, I found that it was easier to teach programming to those who had never programmed before. Those who had already programmed had often acquired bad habits that might work for small programs but not for large ones.
16:36:58
saganman
beach: we had a little bit of programming there but I was enthusiastic embedded programmer back then. Mainly doing atmega stuff.
16:41:00
beach
We called them "cowboy programmers" (they were typically all male). They would always be convinced that we were talking BS, because they had a very long experience, so they obviously knew better. Needless to say, they were unhappy when we gave them bad grades.
16:42:44
beach
Answer: "A working program that is not maintainable is worthless because it can't be fixed, but a non-working program that is maintainable can easily be fixed to work."
16:42:55
madnificent
though I can imagine it is hard to convince them though. we got a course at some point indicating changes to a project. that helped make clear why good design matters. it is a lengthy lesson.
16:43:21
mseddon
rule 1 of code entropy: your program is breaking, and gaining bugs, because the environment it runs in is changing. You don't have to do anything, it is already melting.
16:45:24
_death
I'm a cowboy programmer / Shooting from the hip / A bullet named cadaddr / That's three levels deep
18:14:31
borodust
Xach: i'm looking into bodge-blobs-support issue but doesn't see anything wrong with the repo so far (`stable` is the tag)
18:15:50
borodust
Xach: can you paste git commands somewhere (maybe command log?), i'll try to reproduce
18:54:25
Xach
borodust: aha, it is a false alarm - the system is trying to archive bodge-glad first, and i have not updated it from branched to tagged.
20:26:40
phoe
https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/k1tnl/where_does_the_special_form_labels_come_from/
20:47:44
alanz
phoe, is that related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphoric_macro#Defining_anaphoric_macros (which I happened to come across today)
20:49:41
alanz
just happen to be doing something vaguely similar, in refering to a self-referential function. The second example. Many ways to skin a cat, I suppose
22:16:41
borodust
Xach: that's the whole _I_ don't want to go onto.. what happend? something was depending on those? examples, o guess
22:23:42
phoe
we are quicklisp. the cl-bodge dist will be assimilated. resistance is futile, and it conses a lot anyway.
22:28:44
phoe
but, I guess, if you make a git repository with a *ton* of submodules and slap a trivial-bodge.asd on top...
22:29:00
aeth
phoe: ASDF works on systems, QL works on projects, and they're not the same... annoying projects like CL-SDL2 that use systems like SDL2 break that assumption. (And even if that assumption held, there are lots of secondary systems)
22:31:20
aeth
The goal of trivial-bodge would be to load every bodge project, but not necessarily every bodge system (since e.g. some might just be for tests... although at the moment every bodge-* project in Quicklisp has one system, of the same name)
22:32:35
aeth
OK, good, that can be what makes trivial-bodge so trivial, then. It can just depend on cl-bodge
22:34:27
aeth
borodust: libecl.so is just another .so file, so you might as well make bodge-trivial-cl
23:10:47
borodust
i know i know, i should have abandoned all those, ripped them out of quicklisp body, but.. i couldn't
2:43:43
drmeister
I got on my hobby horse about the wonders of Common Lisp and the relative efficiency of languages on Hacker News... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24642134#24644983
2:44:49
drmeister
“For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?” - Jane Austen
2:56:38
bhartrihari
In Table 2 of he linked article, it's interesting that they put Rust in Object Oriented paradigm, but not Lisp.
3:00:05
no-defun-allowed
Lisp is in the "VM" category of implementations, which is utter bullshit as well.
3:01:22
no-defun-allowed
I couldn't find what implementations were used for any of the tests, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
3:05:01
no-defun-allowed
The implementation list is at the bottom of https://sites.google.com/view/energy-efficiency-languages/setup.
3:05:33
no-defun-allowed
bhartrihari: Sure, but AFAICT the authors of that paper did their own experiments with their own software.
3:08:55
kreyren
meaning i have a hello world file with .cl extension that i want to invoke through ecl
3:13:10
no-defun-allowed
Try (print "Hello") -- LOAD won't print the results of what it evaluates. Also what's cargo-make?
3:13:38
borei
working on the logging library, file logging pretty much completed, was trying to log to local syslog, but found that i can't write to "/dev/log" socket.
3:14:11
drmeister
kreyren: My instructions assumed that you had already started ecl using: ecl and you have the > prompt.
3:17:29
kreyren
using the `(print "Hello")` works, but i need ecl to run it and exit true unless specified otherwise where using `ecl --load file` starts an interactive session
3:17:48
no-defun-allowed
borei: /dev/log is a Unix socket and not a file. I can't remember if there are libraries for working with Unix sockets though.
3:19:29
no-defun-allowed
kreyren: You can add (sys:quit) at the end of the file to make ECL quit after evaluating the rest.
3:20:44
kreyren
which is unwanted as i want to use it as a part of a backend to compile the software cross-platform
3:23:29
no-defun-allowed
Well, do you want the quotes as well? If not, (write-line "...") will just write a line.
4:27:05
kreyren
How can i execute `(write-line "...")` through ecl subshell? where the usage is http://ix.io/2zl4 trying to adapt the code base to work on as many turing complete systems as possible
4:29:10
akoana
borei: example: (sb-posix:syslog 1 "test message ~d from sbcl" 42) ;; 1 is the priority
4:29:20
no-defun-allowed
Why are you using ECL...to script...um...something to do with Makefiles and Rust?
4:29:50
no-defun-allowed
(And, what makes you think it's more portable than CPython or the POSIX shell?)
4:32:53
kreyren
no-defun-allowed, because i want to use rust to mess with it's embedding project for my weird implementation of bedrock linux-inspired project in something more production ready where the Makefile and cargo-make are using shell for scripting of repository management
4:33:26
no-defun-allowed
I thought in Rust they used one too many commas to delimit things, but here you are with none.
4:33:37
kreyren
no-defun-allowed, > or the POSIX shell? < -- Because systems from 1971 usually only have bourne shell (bsh) without a good way to get POSIX sh