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11:40:01
Xach
borodust: I'm having trouble using the stable tag of bodge-blobs-support. I'm getting "fatal: not a valid object name"
11:59:03
phoe
Xach: I suggest that you remove links to Quickdocs from http://blog.quicklisp.org/2020/09/september-2020-quicklisp-dist-update.html
12:00:06
phoe
I fixed a bug in someone else's code who downloaded a project from quickdocs instead of git
12:00:53
phoe
at some point I might become annoyed enough to actually go to war with all the abandoned fukamachiware that is still prominent all around the net
12:01:17
beach
Isn't quickdocs the one that gathers all the documentation strings (including those for internal stuff) but doesn't take into account real documentation?
12:01:18
phoe
quickdocs being one very good example of a website that was once good™ and then got abandoned, making it horrible™
12:02:38
mseddon
and yeesh. can we all start using https, it's 2020, ssl certs are free and easy to set up. :P
12:04:02
jackdaniel
while I agree that https is rather a good thing, it is not that there are no issues with making it omnipresent standard
12:04:26
Xach
ACTION is still adding to https://github.com/search?o=desc&q=type%3Aissue+author%3Aquicklisp&s=created&type=Issues
12:06:09
mseddon
jackdaniel: that's a crap argument for not employing it though. Safety belts aren't 100% either.
12:06:20
jackdaniel
energy efficiency, bandwidch increase (also speed), complicated specification (i.e hard to get right to implement from scratch)
12:07:15
jackdaniel
the last one applies also to so called "web"; adding more and more crap to the "standard' makes it impossible undertaking to anyone who is not a corporation with deep pockets
12:08:06
jackdaniel
(and I don't think of my arguments as being crap, in fact I took some time to think about this topic)
12:14:46
mfiano
Also good, because it's one more reminder and one more straw to break more camels' backs and not to rely on fukamachiware
12:15:00
jackdaniel
virtual pointer in charming in action: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/c9d36e0f-terminal-pointers.webm
12:19:01
mseddon
hopefully it's relatively easy to also add support for gestures like pinch etc that use multiple pointers.
12:32:21
jackdaniel
then I use escape codes (as for ecma-48) + few extension escape codes as for xterm
12:34:04
jackdaniel
here: http://turtleware.eu/posts/Charming-CLIM-tutorial-part-2--Rethinking-The-Output.html
12:37:16
jackdaniel
the target goal is to write a clim application and be able to run it over: terminal, web and natively (or even switch at runtime;)
12:37:32
Nilby
jackdaniel: Wow, Thanks for that blog post. I wrote a lisp-only curses-like thing but it's very slow, so I'm envious.
12:38:38
Xach
jackdaniel: do you have a cooked terminal for the debugger? is the animated ui terminal separate from the rest or is it the only interaction terminal?
12:41:12
Xach
jackdaniel: say you have a bug in your code when you move the cursor somewhere, and it would normally trigger the debugger. what happens?
12:49:07
Xach
schweers: cooked means the terminal interprets input and output into higher level control sequences
12:50:41
Xach
jackdaniel: "animation" is a poor choice of words. watching it as a movie made me think of an animated movie, not a recording of an interactive session.
12:51:57
jackdaniel
I've recorded my interactions with the terminal with the application "peek" which captures part of the X11 screen, the rest are interactions directly with the terminal
13:41:51
mseddon
Xach: Oh! you can do borland style interfaces now- there are unicode characters for the old VGA codepage so you can get all the trimmings.
13:44:22
jackdaniel
(i.e they consume more space than one cell but less than two cells and stuff like that)
16:35:13
beach
saganman: Careful, though. When I was teaching undergraduates, I found that it was easier to teach programming to those who had never programmed before. Those who had already programmed had often acquired bad habits that might work for small programs but not for large ones.
16:36:58
saganman
beach: we had a little bit of programming there but I was enthusiastic embedded programmer back then. Mainly doing atmega stuff.
16:41:00
beach
We called them "cowboy programmers" (they were typically all male). They would always be convinced that we were talking BS, because they had a very long experience, so they obviously knew better. Needless to say, they were unhappy when we gave them bad grades.
16:42:44
beach
Answer: "A working program that is not maintainable is worthless because it can't be fixed, but a non-working program that is maintainable can easily be fixed to work."
16:42:55
madnificent
though I can imagine it is hard to convince them though. we got a course at some point indicating changes to a project. that helped make clear why good design matters. it is a lengthy lesson.
16:43:21
mseddon
rule 1 of code entropy: your program is breaking, and gaining bugs, because the environment it runs in is changing. You don't have to do anything, it is already melting.
16:45:24
_death
I'm a cowboy programmer / Shooting from the hip / A bullet named cadaddr / That's three levels deep
18:14:31
borodust
Xach: i'm looking into bodge-blobs-support issue but doesn't see anything wrong with the repo so far (`stable` is the tag)
18:15:50
borodust
Xach: can you paste git commands somewhere (maybe command log?), i'll try to reproduce
18:54:25
Xach
borodust: aha, it is a false alarm - the system is trying to archive bodge-glad first, and i have not updated it from branched to tagged.
20:26:40
phoe
https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/k1tnl/where_does_the_special_form_labels_come_from/
20:47:44
alanz
phoe, is that related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphoric_macro#Defining_anaphoric_macros (which I happened to come across today)
20:49:41
alanz
just happen to be doing something vaguely similar, in refering to a self-referential function. The second example. Many ways to skin a cat, I suppose
22:16:41
borodust
Xach: that's the whole _I_ don't want to go onto.. what happend? something was depending on those? examples, o guess
22:23:42
phoe
we are quicklisp. the cl-bodge dist will be assimilated. resistance is futile, and it conses a lot anyway.
22:28:44
phoe
but, I guess, if you make a git repository with a *ton* of submodules and slap a trivial-bodge.asd on top...
22:29:00
aeth
phoe: ASDF works on systems, QL works on projects, and they're not the same... annoying projects like CL-SDL2 that use systems like SDL2 break that assumption. (And even if that assumption held, there are lots of secondary systems)
22:31:20
aeth
The goal of trivial-bodge would be to load every bodge project, but not necessarily every bodge system (since e.g. some might just be for tests... although at the moment every bodge-* project in Quicklisp has one system, of the same name)
22:32:35
aeth
OK, good, that can be what makes trivial-bodge so trivial, then. It can just depend on cl-bodge
22:34:27
aeth
borodust: libecl.so is just another .so file, so you might as well make bodge-trivial-cl
23:10:47
borodust
i know i know, i should have abandoned all those, ripped them out of quicklisp body, but.. i couldn't