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7:22:54
phoe
that would be a backwards incompatible change though and possibly disconnect a lot of people
7:25:25
N00BMAN
wait thats not dolphin boy thats the one with the bad php based random name generator
7:51:16
jdz
Just for the record, I use circe (an emacs IRC client), and I don't see any of the join/leave messages (unless they're relevant).
7:51:33
asarch
I found a good tutorial for writing Motif-based applications with the C programming language
8:05:04
aeth
90s Unix/Linux looked so bad compared to Windows 95, which was amazing. Still is. Windows UI peaked with 95/98/2000
8:05:16
aeth
Well, besides that brief trend where they tried to embed IE as your desktop background...
8:05:43
aeth
I think that was Win 98, so I guess you could say it was bimodal with Win 95 and Win 2000
8:07:36
asarch
Actually, JVM was the default on the last release, but CDE was available as an option
8:12:59
Odin-
I'm fairly sure the live DVD I got from Sun had GNOME running by default ... but I'm not sure where that is now. :p
8:20:50
asarch
ACTION whispers: https://ayera.dl.sourceforge.net/project/archiveos/o/opensolaris/osol-0906-x86.iso
10:21:57
no-defun-allowed
Currently I have used FiveAM and Parachute, and will probably slowly port my tests to the latter.
10:26:53
phoe
if you want some actual management for your tests and test objects, use fiveam or parachute
10:27:44
phoe
if you want to be able to run your tests when when some invariants change, use proctor
10:28:11
phoe
if you want to upset #lisp, use your own hand-rolled test framework that you then upload to Quicklisp
10:29:23
madrik
Well, my present uses are very simple. Typically, a function is followed by a number of tests.
10:31:19
madrik
Right now, I'm mildly annoyed that if I load several packages with defined tests, I may have missed how to selectively run tests for a given package; every test in each package runs.
10:35:02
jackdaniel
ACTION is pleasently surprised that there is lorem-ipsum for common lisp available, thanks phoe
10:36:09
phoe
I still can't get over the fact that I didn't listen to someone who wanted me to name that system lorem-lispum instead
10:38:13
White_Flame
the wiki really needs to rank things, but that's opinionated and requires updating
10:43:37
madrik
I checked my Debian system for available packages. I see FiveAM and Franz's ptester besides MIT's RT.
10:44:07
Shinmera
Most people seem to choose their framework based on whatever surface syntax they prefer. Parachute was made with the intention of being able to usurp all others by providing an extensible protocol.
10:44:31
Shinmera
So it provides 'compatibility layers' that emulate the surface syntax of other frameworks, for instance.
10:49:10
White_Flame
I mean, how would you know if your tests for your testing suite are bug free? :)
10:50:00
scymtym
fiveam has a simple but very useful quickcheck-like system for random testing of properties which seems to be overlooked a lot
10:51:15
phoe
madrik: *DON'T* use packages from apt. Uninstall everything from there and use quicklisp exclusively.
10:52:54
jackdaniel
another pleasent surprise: closure seems to more or less work with slight modifications on current McCLIM
12:05:10
madrik
phoe: I have not used quicklisp. From my reading, it is a package manager for Common Lisp, isn't it?
12:05:42
jackdaniel
packages in common lisp have different meaning, but in a common "unixy" jargon -- yes, it is
12:08:25
madrik
Perhaps my use is uncommon, if not weird, but I don't use the Emacs package manager either. A while ago, I tried to get Magit from MELPA, but the dependencies weren't properly managed. So I just reverted to Apt.
12:09:50
madrik
scymtym: What is the 'quickcheck-like system for random testing of properties' about? Could you please expand?
12:12:38
madrik
I suppose I could say that my position is to have a provisional, stable base to reach out from.
12:13:56
scymtym
madrik: you specify how to generate random inputs and properties that must be true for all inputs and the frameworks tries to find inputs that violate the properties. an example that uses a simple property but a complex random input generator is https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/test/reader/quasiquote-macro.lisp#L42 (generator:
12:13:56
scymtym
https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/test/reader/gen-quasiquote.lisp#L53 )
12:15:25
madrik
On a related topic, it appears that a substantial portion of Unix-like Lisp users run Debian-based systems, including Ubuntu. Are the Red Hat and Suse families less conducive to Lisp hacking? Or do more commercial outfits prefer them?
12:17:08
Odin-
Ubuntu has, for quite a while now, been the "this is what is the assumed setup" distro.
12:32:21
phoe
madrik: please start using quicklisp instead. apt sources are often outdated and are not widely supported.
12:32:58
phoe
Also, I don't think other linuxes are less friendly for Lisp. Implementations run anywhere, Quicklisp runs everywhere. Debian and its derivs are simply popular.
12:38:17
Cymew
Canonical/Ubuntu has made an effort to conquer the desktop, that's probably why it's so common.
12:50:02
edgar-rft
i think Ubuntu / Suse / Fedora are heavily GUI desktop oriented Linux distos while the very first thing a progammer does on a GUI desktop is opening a shell window :-) I myself am using Debian because it's dead easy to reduce the GUI stuff to the minimum I need for working with aufio / video/ images and all the rest I do either in Emacs or in a shell window.
14:52:07
lf94
Hey guys, just diving into the curiousity that is lisp once again like everyone does. Question: is there any lisp that has implemented a type system in itself?
14:52:45
lf94
Secondly: is there a type system where you can define the most basic of structures? Like integers and floating point?
14:53:38
lf94
For this I was thinking using regular expressions could work well, but no, there are some limitations. Like defining the order of integers...
14:56:51
Bike
lf94: i'm not sure what exactly you mean, but (a) this channel is about common lisp specifically, and (b) it has a standard type system.
14:58:42
Bike
i wasn't talking to you. but yes i'm sure people are around who have used with hunchentoot. i've only barely worked with it and probably can't help you, sorry.
15:01:47
Shinmera
just state your problem. it's annoying to have to wait to see whether one could help or not. people with or without hunchentoot experience may or may not be able to help you.
15:03:37
shidima
I'm trying to make define a handler for the base uri / , but it keeps giving me the default hunchentoot page.
15:07:14
Shinmera
if you want to simply catch all requests ever, you should define an acceptor instead.
15:11:11
Shinmera
just doing that with a string for return and starting hunchentoot does give me the correct string page.
15:12:27
shidima
Ok, ill look into it some more than. Thanks for confirming the code should work tho.
15:38:42
pfdietz
Is there an existing library for "self specializing methods"? These would be methods that, when given parameters in a particular set of classes, would produce a specialized version of themselves for those classes.
15:45:11
lf94
I'm looking around the Internet but can't find much on the subject: how's memory usage in lisp vs other compiled languages?
15:46:43
pfdietz
It can depend on the garbage collector. Copying collectors, for example, might copy between two large spaces, which might double the memory footprint. But all modern languages with GC face this issue.
15:47:54
pfdietz
A very old concern about Common Lisp was that all the standard parts of it took up a lot of space. But now that footprint is quite small, comparatively.
15:48:16
beach
lf94: Second, there is no such thing as a compiled language. Whether a compiler or an interpreter is used, is a function of the implementation, not the language.
15:48:46
beach
lf94: It very much depends on the strategy of garbage collection used by the implementation.
15:49:24
jackdaniel
lf94: these points are important in Common Lisp case, because there is five or more actively maintained implementations with very different traits
15:49:47
beach
lf94: Third, you may want to study the works of Jim Newton and Didier Verna. They have type descriptors for Common Lisp that work like regular expressions on lists.
15:51:16
beach
lf94: Such a thing does not exist, unless you mean reference counting, which is not used by any Common Lisp implementation that I know of, and for good reasons.
15:52:16
Shinmera
shidima: are you perhaps not returning anything from the function? I believe returning NIL will cause hunchentoot to skip the dispatch.
15:52:34
jmercouris
if this is the deciding factor about whether you will choose lisp or not, save everyone's time and just learn rust
15:52:52
jackdaniel
if something may be allocated on the stack, it is very possible that optimizing implementations would do that
15:55:19
beach
lf94: You may want to look at the GC literature. There are some formulas that relate memory overhead and GC frequency for different types of GC techniques.
15:55:58
lf94
My fear is GC is overkill - I only hear about "sweep-mark" GC all the time for embedded systems
15:56:54
jmercouris
either learn Lisp or don't, questions about performance characteristics aren't going to be the silver bullet to draw you to it
15:56:56
lf94
It's fragmented, and I'm hoping talking a bit here will fill some more holes around my concerns :P
15:58:02
jmercouris
reminds me of the guy who "knew" some Perl and wanted to see the equivalent in Lisp and _death wrote a funny little program :-)
15:58:18
beach
lf94: If you don't appreciate the superior performance in terms of execution time of automatic memory management in the form of a tracing garbage collector compared to that of reference counting or manual memory management, I think you should stay away from implementations that use tracing garbage collectors.
15:59:27
beach
lf94: There is always a trade-off between memory use and execution time. If you are that short of memory and don't care about execution time, garbage collection is not for you.
15:59:37
lf94
So moving away from memory: are there any type systems written in lisp, and then used in a lisp?
16:01:40
beach
lf94: You can try ##lisp, but you should know that there is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp".
16:04:08
beach
lf94: Seriously, read the works of Jim Newton and Didier Verna. They will tell you everything you need to know about type systems relative to Common Lisp.