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6:50:35
clhsgang[m]
(with-sarcasm (format nil "hey can we add ~a to the standard it's like a very important programming thing" (random-elt '("currying" "polymorphic types" "traits" "memory safety")))
6:53:51
LdBeth
But I believe it can bring solutions to problems 1. Static analysis 2. Code formatting
7:34:24
beach
trafaret1: You are in a channel dedicated to Common Lisp. Of course we would encourage you to learn it.
7:36:27
shrdlu68
What we need now is a bunch of people learning CL half-heartedly and writing blog posts comparing it unfavourably to some other language.
7:37:32
beach
trafaret1: Your trolling would be much more effective if you learned the grammar of English.
7:40:34
schweers
TIL about the word afflatus. I seriously didn’t know it, and it actually does kinda fit the question. So yes, maybe I was too harsh
7:43:13
schweers
As to the actual question, whether or not learing lisp will benifit an individual ... just fucking google it already. These is enough on the web to answer that question.
7:45:26
clhsgang[m]
RECURSIVE FUNCTIONS OF SYMBOLIC EXPRESSIONS AND THEIR COMPUTATION BY MACHINE (Part I): why did i do this
7:47:59
schweers
As we have quite a few people here who don’t speak english as a native language ... what do you folks make of Eric Raymond’s advice for would-be hackers to learn proper english?
7:48:25
zigpaw
so everyone will have to re-buy the print version to have the latest standard version with 'mammoth shit' included? sounds like a plan ;)
7:50:17
clhsgang[m]
anyways i think people should analyse people like esr's and graham's code, not personal beliefs
7:52:04
beach
schweers: I have been in many meetings where English was spoken but where many participants did not master it. It was interesting to observe how the people mastering the language more frequently got their opinions voted on.
7:52:45
schweers
beach: what exactly do you mean by “voted on”? They got more feedback and the like?
7:54:52
schweers
Not surprising. I am guity of zoning off when I have to listen to someone who does not speak the language somewhat competently.
7:55:34
schweers
So I guess that the ideas of those who did not master the language were simply not will understood by the audience.
7:56:00
schweers
Note that I don’t want to blame anyone for not speaking english. I tried to learn french in school and failed miserably.
7:56:20
beach
schweers: It was also that they were too shy to protest because they couldn't express the objections very well.
7:56:21
Shinmera
schweers: It's not about language, just about how competent people appear. If someone speaks fluently they appear more competent. There's other factors to this too of course.
7:56:40
shrdlu68
For the average Random J. D'vloper, one of the first things they picture when someone mentions Lisp is immense age. What good is an antediluvian language? Surely the newer languages were invented for a reason?
7:57:17
loke
schweers: Still, I'd have thought that the behaviour you descibed would be more common in people who only speak one language.
7:57:34
schweers
loke: my point is actually: I shy away from telling people they must learn a language, because I failed at doing so myself.
7:59:55
schweers
loke: at first glance he seems to be gun nut, which so does not resonate with me (I hope I’m not starting any flamewars here)
7:59:56
dim
there's only one way to get good at anything and that's practice. so if you want to help people to speak a new language, well, the best you can do is offer them more practice opportunities, and that means listening to them, not speaking to them.
8:02:48
varjag
schweers: esr is quite right wing, so many feel justified to ignore his personal opinions on hacker culture
8:04:15
dim
the question I keep reading about esr and code is: how much did he actually write himself? but again, that's stearing away from our topic
8:05:09
zigpaw
depends on what you mean by IoT, as this buzzword is quite encompassing (ie a laptop can be considered an IoT device).
8:07:02
zigpaw
IoT is considered much more than embedded I think. You even have cloud for IoT sold, and many other "products" that are clearly not embedded goes into this bag.
9:24:05
schweers
I’m reading AMOP chapter 5 and in the section on methods it says that a method contains a generic function, /if/ the method is associated with a generic function. It further states, that a method can be associated with at most one generic function at a time. My question is this: how can a method /not/ be associated with a generic function?
9:25:35
beach
schweers: If you just create the method using MAKE-INSTANCE it will not be associated with any generic function.
9:26:26
schweers
does it make senst to have a method not associated with a gf, unless one is about to associate it?
9:32:18
v0|d
beach: do you have something in writing that talks about std-class bein a std-class, what do they call it in GHC, rankN types?
9:37:55
no-defun-allowed
it's a very buggy body to say the least. someone compiled it with (DECLARE (Y-CHROMOSOME T)) and now i have to put up with it
9:38:04
jsjolen
Yeah, it's pretty typical to optimize for unsafety when drunk so that might be why you had wrap-around issues
9:44:04
no-defun-allowed
unfortunately estradiol isn't in the quicklisp packages so i'll have to find it somewhere else
9:51:34
beach
v0|d: This picture is derived from information in the AMOP book: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png
9:51:53
phoe
I mean, technically, you can create a method object, equip it with some function, then call that method directly without calling any generic function at all.
9:52:18
phoe
If your use case is unusual enough to involve such mechanisms, then it might be feasible for you.
9:52:28
beach
As you can see, the word STANDARD-CLASS is in red, meaning that it is an instance of STANDARD-CLASS (because the rectangle is drawn in red).
9:53:05
phoe
But unless you dive deep into CLOS/MOP internals and have enough knowledge to back you up in case you screw something up, the answer is, no, it doesn't make sense.
9:53:46
Shinmera
The point of the blurb is simply that it is possible for methods to exist without generic functions (because they need to be created first and then attached)
9:54:50
beach
v0|d: The color of the text determines the metaclass. If the color is green, the metaclass is built-in-class. If the color is blue, the metaclas is funcallable-standard-class. Etc.
10:03:16
v0|d
beach: Do you know a particular algorithm that employs this recursive type? (std-class)
10:05:25
beach
Well, it is more like this: Since every Common Lisp object is the instance of some class, unless you want infinitely many classes, there has to be a cycle somewhere in the graph.
10:12:17
phoe
with the smallest cycle being (typep (make-instance 'standard-object) 'standard-object) ;=> T
15:29:01
AeroNotix
I ran mezzano for like 10 seconds a few years ago. Clicked around, "huh cool" and never ran it again
15:33:11
random-nick
but you might have trouble getting it to connect to the network because Mezzano only supports a single ethernet card
15:37:13
random-nick
it doesn't have DHCP, TCP retransmit, ICMP (but it has enough of it to get ping to work), and it has only 1 network driver