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8:39:29
borodust
does LGPL-2.1+ license imply i can actually use mcclim in a single image that is licensed under any license?
8:42:35
borodust
i know it was probably beaten to death, but compiling into a single image is more like statically linking..
8:43:19
jackdaniel
let me quote part of the abovelinked post: "My strong belief lies on the side that it is not derived work and if the author of the Lisp library gave it the LGPL license – they meant it. If we take another interpretation, then it is no different than licensing it with GPL, so it would be nonsense."
8:45:28
borodust
so, compiling mcclim into an executable image with proprietary license would be considered dynamic linking?
8:48:29
jackdaniel
I think that other interpretation wouldn't defend itself in any court case; but I get it that some people are too afraid of anything having GPL in its name and *just in case* won't touch it. But that's their problem
8:50:50
borodust
the problem is that lgpl is for shared/dynamic libraries, but we compile code into an image, which is formally totally statically linked
8:52:22
borodust
like, even if go into https://tldrlegal.com/license/gnu-lesser-general-public-license-v2.1-(lgpl-2.1) where summary is probably not written by a lawyer either, it states "Must disclose" "If the software is statically linked (i.e. compiled into)"
8:52:55
jackdaniel
I've already elaborated on how I see things (both in blogpost and on this channel). I strongly believe what counts most is an undeniable intent of action.
8:54:03
jackdaniel
(with exception for C-based implementations like ECL, which doesn't have running system image)
8:55:00
borodust
jackdaniel: i'm talking about this _i.e._ section thing and if it is true from the text of the license and not just some random "i.e.", then images fall under that rule
8:57:12
jackdaniel
I can't speak of others, contributors date back to 1999 and most of them I do not know. Let me ask you this: what would be their intent to give Lisp library (knowing images are a thing) license LGPL-2.1+ (and not GPL-2.0+)?
8:59:04
jackdaniel
when you load fasl you have functions in the image, still technically speaking it is static runtime-wise
9:00:11
loke
For what it's worth, as I even read the blog post and gave opinions even before JD made it, I fully agree with his interpretation.
9:04:59
borodust
jackdaniel: also, when you load shared library, you too have all statically linked in run-time
9:07:28
borodust
jackdaniel: hmm, after linker mapped stuff into process memory ain't funcion called directly then?
9:09:28
borodust
sorry for the offtopic, i'm really not here for the flaming, i'm just considering implications of bringing lgpl'ed lisp software into a project
9:10:14
jackdaniel
I hope I've presented both sides of possible argumentation lines and where my strong opinion stands
9:12:13
jackdaniel
also keep in mind, that combined work license doesn't imply relicensing one of its components
9:12:53
jackdaniel
otherwise it would be enough for me to use your mit project with gpl library and say, that you are obliged to relicense your library because *I* have combined it with other software
9:14:36
jackdaniel
I don't think there is right and wrong in here. if you are afraid to use lgpl-2.1+ libraries then maybe you shouldn't (for sake of sound sleep at night)
9:15:45
borodust
i'm gathering opinions, because i'm not sure, and there could be several interpretations, and i like yours :) but you are not the sole contributor, hence the questions
9:15:52
jackdaniel
I'll be happy with more contributions, but convincing people is not my strong suit
9:16:46
jackdaniel
I would be *very* suprised if any of current contributors I know would present other opinion on that
9:17:48
jackdaniel
it is LGPL-2.1+ because we can't relicense it (due to older copyrights) to something more convincing for unsure people (like LLGPL) even if there is no need for that from the licensing perspective (but there is from the emotional perspective, and that counts too)
9:30:44
borodust
why it isn't possible to add a preamble if it doesn't change the intent of the contributors
13:59:08
jackdaniel
articles #11 and #13 has passed. all service provides allowing uploading content will be requierd to implement an upload filter and a so-called link tax (however bare link won't be a subject of it, though even small text snippets will be)
14:03:29
jackdaniel
also commission has propsed new rules to prevent terroist content appear on the internet. basically: providers will have 1h time to remove content conculded terrorist by authorities and the service provider will be obligued to provide 24/7 contact line for that purpose. that was not voted yet though
14:07:42
TMA
beach: maybe there is a cultural difference. our "representatives" in the former eastern bloc still do not consider the general population as relevant, we are just peasants the votes of which are bought by empty promises and vague threats. and those that dare to speak up are just nuissance to be dealt with (by ignoring and/or repressing)
14:08:21
scymtym
if this trend continues, doing anything on the internet, maybe except for watching youtube videos, will be too risky/expensive for anyone who isn't a multinational company
15:10:53
jackdaniel
I believe this is a plan, to change internet from p2p communication to b2c distribution
15:26:25
scymtym
Kaz_: that is probably due a bug in either SBCL 1.4.10 or SBCL 1.4.11. are running one of those by any chance?
15:28:24
Kaz_
I recently switched to Arch Linux. I have to figure out how I can do downgrading of a package.
15:30:46
scymtym
right, assuming you are on a x86_64 machine, there is a pre-built 1.4.11 package at http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
16:22:18
jackdaniel
"fun" fact, xlib:draw-lines and xlib:draw-rectangle behave differently wrt applying gc mask
16:31:59
slyrus
jackdaniel: one day (not this morning) I want to talk about applying non-trivial transformations to sheets. keep that in mind :)
16:33:23
jackdaniel
I can tell you that many things will horribly break out of the bat. i.e we often treat sheet-native-transformation as a translation and use transformed 0,0 as top-left point in medium drawing operations
16:34:16
jackdaniel
but sure, we may talk about it. keep in mind though, that whem I'm done with current changes I'm jumping ship to ECL for another few weeks
16:49:44
beach
I take that to mean that there is a kind of a "prefix" of the pane hierarchy that has simpler transformations than one might find further down the tree.
16:55:23
slyrus
and we should make the distinction between axis-aligned rectangles and those that aren't necessarily axis-aligned. A top-level sheet should probably only be axis-aligned.
16:56:58
jackdaniel
I didn't investigate why is that, probably it checks matrix and float operatiosn are, khrm
16:57:06
beach
slyrus: Yes, I think the idea is that the top-level sheet has the identity transformation with respect to the display server.
17:02:14
jackdaniel
I'm inclined to suspect, that X server ignores x/y-clip-origin for +x-fillpolly+ request (and that would be a bug)
17:20:03
jackdaniel
(or it is clx who doesn't send these parameters correct for non-rectangles - I've confirmed that the same problem applies to xlib:draw-ark)
17:21:20
beach
For a while there, I thought the ultra-religious Americans had taken over X11 or CLX.
18:44:43
jackdaniel
origin works fine, the problem is that only rectangle's gcontext is relative to its drawable
18:45:27
jackdaniel
other operation's have 0,0 at the beginning of the graft and I don't see any flaws in how clx calls the xserver
19:55:13
jackdaniel
could anyone try this demo: http://ix.io/1mz9 to confirm, that the problem is not specific to my environment?
19:58:04
jackdaniel
basically the left pane uses draw-rectangle with pattern ink and the right pane uses draw-polygon with points making the same rectangle (likewise)
19:58:44
jackdaniel
failure on my host is that while left pane is drawn correctly, on the right one diagonal starts from the top-left of my screen
19:59:15
jackdaniel
(so the diagonal rectangles will cross the right pane assuming they start at top-left of the screen)
20:00:50
jackdaniel
(space is a keystroke for empty command to ensure, that everything is redisplayed, not just repainted)