freenode/#clim - IRC Chatlog
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9:39:35
jackdaniel
btw, I'd love to be able to invoke output-to-output-record on nil instead of a stream. that way I'd be able to examine things easier
9:41:41
jackdaniel
I'd want to have output record with :stream bound to NIL which has all operations recorded
9:42:37
jackdaniel
output-to-output-record does exactly that (but it fakes drawing on a stream, then removes taht output-record from said stream)
9:48:47
frgo
Wikipedia says "Main development was between 1988 and 1993. CLIM 2.0 was released in 1993."
9:50:30
beach
jackdaniel: If you don't have a medium, how would you know the size of the output record? Things like arrow styles will alter the output record size.
9:51:40
frgo
Yeah - makes for even a better statement: "This device GUI is based on technology invented 30 years ago" - hehe.
9:52:03
jackdaniel
beach: we do not scrap drawing from X plane, each element drawn creates its own output record of certain size. if it doesn't assess properly size of its output record, then we don't have the right size
9:53:15
jackdaniel
I can imagine backend, which returns such information, but that's not how McCLIM works (and I think that taken approach is very sane, because according to specification, drawing on medium is just some approximation of sheet contents)
9:54:28
jackdaniel
and I have even idea how to make such thing to work ("offline" recording), but that would require some non-trivial work with class hierarchy and medium-draw-* specializations
9:57:49
beach
But I often find myself trying to navigate an output-record hierarchy using the inspect. It is not easy.
9:58:58
beach
It is easy to forget that sometimes writing a new tool is the best way to go when there is a problem to debug.
10:09:39
scymtym
definitely. clim is pretty good for this kind of thing. i have also heard good things about http://pharo.org/web for similar tasks
10:14:31
beach
I can only speak for CLIM, but I totally agree. The CLIM model fits perfectly with this kind of application.
10:17:17
frgo
Pharo looks nice. I do like their approach for attracting people: The MOOC: http://mooc.pharo.org/ - cool.
10:18:31
jackdaniel
frgo: my strategy for attracting people is sitting here and trying to look cool ;-)
10:19:57
jackdaniel
btw, given first copyrights in clim-tos are 88, we can assume that this is 30th anniversary; we could write about it on the blog
11:28:31
jackdaniel
do I understand correctly, that this definition is bogus (i.e transformations should be composed in opposite order)?
11:56:11
jackdaniel
probably somebody just coded it for specification coverage without much thought (and nobody used it)
12:00:32
jackdaniel
and that kind-of solves one of bugs I've found with transformations vs patterns (not really related to pattern)
12:27:14
scymtym
btw, this is the visualization i mentioned earlier: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/parser-debug.ogv
13:19:28
loke
For example, when a draw-text-output-record is created, it asks the medium what the precise measurement is
13:26:57
loke
Basically, when the output record is created, it calls TEXT-BOUNDING-RECTANGLE* on the medium to determine the dimensions of the output record. Each backend has its own implementation of this.