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13:58:41
jackdaniel
beach: https://henry.github.com/EuLisp/Doc/EuLisp-0.991/eulisp.pdf (eulisp standard draft)
13:58:58
jackdaniel
as I've mentioned, I want to coerce ecl_min bootstrapping binary to adhere to eulisp level 0
14:06:24
beach
I will try to read the Eulisp document, but I have a large number of things to attend to in the near future, so I may forget. Could you remind me from time to time?
14:07:46
jackdaniel
sure. in summary: it is somewhere in between CL and Scheme, evaluation rule is taken from the latter, standard has "levels", where lower level means less extensibility and introspection
14:09:51
beach
My lunch guests just left and I have been working hard, so I'm going to take a shower and then come back.
14:09:53
jackdaniel
telos is part of the standard, so it is available from level 0 (but in higher levels it gains more capabilities)
14:12:04
jackdaniel
standard defines in fact level-0 and level-1 (in form of modules), where level-1 is not necessarily a conforming level-0 program. more modules may be added
14:20:27
beach
jackdaniel: So you mean that your C code will create a Eulisp level 0 language processor, and the rest of your code will be written using that language processor?
14:22:26
jackdaniel
no, right now ECL is build with ecl_min (which is an undocumented primitive lisp implementation), which loads code to become Common Lisp. Compiler is a Common Lisp program, which is used to compile files which were previously only loaded and produces a binary
14:23:06
jackdaniel
I want only to make ecl_min eulisp level 0 language processor, rest stays the same (+/- benefits I'll gain from a more complete lisp)
14:23:47
jackdaniel
(that means, that I'll have two different evaluators, but that shouldn't be a problem since it is a case already)
14:24:42
jackdaniel
that's a plan at least, it is very much possible that I'll abandon the idea when I hit something ugly what will impact the rest of ECL
14:25:58
jackdaniel
no worries, I'll check on in an hour or so, I'm going to drink some coffee with my wife ;-)
15:53:18
loke
Someone reported a bug in my Freetype code, and as best as I can tell, it's actually a bug in CLX
16:06:54
slyrus_
I'm only halfway through it, but scymtym's demo (and years of debugging these sorts of things by hand) clearly demonstrate the need for better "tooling" (as the kewl-kids say these days) to support lisp's macro system. By "tooling" I mean debuggers, macroexpansion tools, etc...
16:27:00
slyrus_
loke, the freetype2 stuff looks nice! is it just me or is the RGB hinting a bit wonky though?
16:28:46
loke
slyrus: It's annoying. On some systems it looks bad, and others it looks great. Also, it depends on the font used.
16:30:00
loke
slyrus: Up until earlier today, the default was NIL, now it's T. If you change it, make sure you do it _before_ you actually run anything since the hinted font is cached.
16:30:20
loke
slyrus: Yes. The freetype renderer allow you to specify an arbitrary transformation matrix.
16:31:21
loke
That's why I was asking jackdaniel if there is some standardised configuration system.
16:35:22
pelle
hi, when loading McCLIM in SBCL on Debian, it needs to recompile every time it loads, even though I've set ASDF_OUTPUT_TRANSLATIONS, and other CL libraries (like Hunchentoot) only need to compile first time they're loaded.
16:36:08
pelle
and since McCLIM takes about 10 minutes to compile here, it's really inconvenient. Is there a way to avoid this 10 minute compile every time the program is run?
16:40:00
pelle
@phoe: however, I am a little bit new to common lisp so I would not know if Quicklisp would somehow load the Debian package, or whether Quicklisp *only* fetches them online
16:40:53
phoe
pelle: to be absolutely blunt and honest, uninstall *ALL* CL packages installed from the debian repos.
16:41:21
loke
slyrus: Right. That's the weird part. On at least one of my machines, it's the exact opposite. The kerning is all screwed up _with_ autohinting, but looks great without.
16:42:05
phoe
Grab yourself a Quicklisp, use it to (ql:quickload :mcclim) - it's guaranteed to stay relatively fresh.
16:42:56
loke
The world would be a better place if these repositories just simply idn't include these packages at all. It's an endless struggle explaining to newcompers that they should uninstall them.
16:43:29
pelle
@phoe and @loke: Thanks, good to know. Quicklisp also takes 10 minutes to load McCLIM, but perhaps it's loading the local package? I'll try uninstalling it completely.
16:43:36
loke
Who even creates these repositories in the first place? I can't help but think that anyone who actually knows CL would know better not to even include them.
16:43:56
loke
pelle: I have no idea, but yes, it could be the package stuff that messes with things.
16:44:07
pelle
@loke: Ah, ok. Guess it's like the NodeJS repos in Debian then. Thanks for clarifying!
16:44:16
loke
pelle: Also, you might want to get Mcclim from the git repository. Lots of fixes since the last QL update.
16:44:31
scymtym
loke: one example is dim packaging pgloader dependencies because it can't go into debian otherwise
16:45:19
loke
scymtym: Yeah, but I disagree with him on the design of that. I'd rather see him just package it all into a self-contained package that doesn't interfere with anything else. Splitting it out into separate packages makes no sense.
16:47:55
loke
Anyway... I need to go to sleep now. Need to get up early in the morning, and it's well past midnight.
17:32:27
jackdaniel
afaik McCLIM is the "biggest" ASDF system in Quicklisp, it may expose some bugs in the latter (or it could be that our asd systems have issues)
17:33:14
jackdaniel
loke: there is not, something we should: a) design; b) document; c) implement. adding ad-hoc implementation will end in something what will be forgotten
17:33:53
jackdaniel
example of things which were: a) implemented; b) not designed; c) not documented – text-selection module
17:36:35
jackdaniel
as of having things packaged – that certainly makes a lot of sense for use (not for development) – more reproducible software etc
17:37:15
jackdaniel
the fact that there is not much end-user software in FOSS world (mostly libraries and interactive development tools) may make this less obvious though