freenode/#clim - IRC Chatlog
Search
8:36:24
bjorkintosh
exactly. we made it complicated. he recycles certain concepts over and over again in the hope that they stick in some day.
8:58:17
beach
I have been able to give talks for some software companies, and I try to discuss these things, but I have to be very careful with the way I present them. I am thinking of creating a new one, based on these talks by Alan Kay, but not as scattered.
9:01:37
beach
But the way he presents it requires the audience to be either very quick thinking, very knowledgeable, or experienced with his talking style.
9:02:47
beach
I can believe that. But if I were to give a talk in this style to the companies I am working with, I would not be invited back.
9:03:12
jackdaniel
fact that concepts are easy doesn't mean they don't require time to sink in - I don't think a single talk will cut it
9:04:10
jackdaniel
knowing what to look for and where to look for require another kind of (specialized!) knowledge
9:04:31
bjorkintosh
beach, it isn't so much that he gets away with it, than that he's indulged. I don't think a lot of people pay attention to what he has to say despite its gravity.
9:06:01
bjorkintosh
well. there's a model. source -> audience (level 1 level 2) -> exam. usually it hits level 1, and never makes it to level 2.
9:07:05
bjorkintosh
the deeper level requires a stupendous amount of effort, which time rarely permits.
9:08:21
jackdaniel
bjorkintosh: exam-based approach punishes curiousity and self-learners (mentioned library approach) in favour of people who need to be told what to do
9:09:24
bjorkintosh
jackdaniel, i don't think it's necessarily deliberate. it's just to expose you to enough things so that one may go pursue these things independently when the time comes.
9:14:43
jackdaniel
one problem is the question how to attract people who are genuinely interested in the subject (in opposite to people who pursue a career and were told that CS gives nice oportunities for it) at universities
9:15:24
smokeink
I'm gonna save this quote "exam-based approach punishes curiousity and self-learners (mentioned library approach) in favour of people who need to be told what to do"
9:15:44
jackdaniel
another problem is that not everyone who may be a wonderful scientist makes an acceptable teacher
9:19:18
jackdaniel
but back on-ontopic track, when I finish a) fixing layout protocol [if possible], b) write post about gadgets, I want to write a post about output records
9:19:53
jackdaniel
note: not output-recording-streams, but about using output-records without streams, because it is a very interesting concept on its own
9:45:46
beach
I just manipulate the graph of output records rather than using the stream operations.
9:51:06
jackdaniel
that passage will help me explain what is a difference between replaying and repainting too
9:59:53
beach
I am not sure about the difference between replaying and repainting, but I know the difference between redisplaying and replaying is very different.
10:05:48
jackdaniel
One way to think about it is that repaint is a separate thing. If you have output recording then replay repaints all output records which need to be repainted. Redisplay removes all records and creates them anew - you need to know what is to be displayed and you must record everything again. At least that's how I understand things at the moment.
14:13:12
jackdaniel
huh, I'm trying to head or tails of sheet transformations and it seems that standard have ingrined support for device-specific sheets (just as I have suggested McCLIM should have) - good, less work for later
14:14:24
jackdaniel
that said I've identified problem, but I'm not sure yet how to solve it without breaking things: we assume that mirrored sheet coordinates are the same as the window (so mirrored-translation and sheet-transformation have the same object)
14:14:43
jackdaniel
but for sheets which have only graft as a parent these are not relative coordinates but absolute
14:17:02
jackdaniel
I've also noticed somewhat superfluous transformations in the object: we have device, native, sheet and mirrored transformations. I bet at least two of these four can be merged so we have three (and in best case we may end with 2 transformations overall)
14:47:55
jackdaniel
more code I read the distinction becomes more clear: there are read-write programmers and write-only programmers
14:48:44
jackdaniel
first ones are careful and write code slowly but usually codebase doesn't get worse (or gets slightly worse in exchange for some other improvement, like a feature or bugfix)
14:49:51
jackdaniel
and there are write-only programmers, who who are fast to implement fixes and features on top of the existing code using things available (that often results in duplicated code and parallel passages doing essantially same thing in a slightly different context)
14:52:39
nyef
jackdaniel: I think that there's read-write code and write-only code, but the programmer thing is a bit more nuanced.
14:53:53
nyef
When faced with time pressure, a good programmer can still end up producing "write-only" code.
14:54:40
jackdaniel
I'm not saying, that write-only coding is a bad, I think it is great for building prototypes and understanding
14:54:45
nyef
But when given the opportunity, the better programmers will tend to consolidate what they've produced.
15:59:25
slyrus
jackdaniel: I see you've been looking at the various CLIM display transformations. You've probably seen it before, but if you haven't check out my zoom-viewer for a use case I'd really like to see supported
16:01:20
jackdaniel
I'm thinking about replacing slot-names for native-transformation and device-transformation slots to #native-transformation and #device-transformation (or if convention is not good - to cached-device-transformation and cached-native-transformation
16:02:27
slyrus
what's the story with these slots? are they cached for mcclim internals to use or for user code?
16:03:07
jackdaniel
user have methods like (sheet-device-transformation sheet) (which are not setfable)
16:03:40
jackdaniel
%foo just means internal to me. I'll use full name then – cached-native-transformation
16:04:24
jackdaniel
(I want to make it obvious, because next person may waste considerable amount of time acting on wrong assumption that these slots hold actual thing - like I did)
17:32:09
jackdaniel
slyrus: did you think about specializing redisplay-output-record on your zooming pane and "stealing" output-recoreds from a "normal" stream to draw them? just a loose thought
17:55:00
scymtym
ACTION is also interested in zooming. for the flamegraph pane in https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/clamegraph2.png (and most of the required SBCL changes have landed now)