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5:00:45
beach
Imagine someone as eloquent as Steven Pinker delivering a message as important as that of Alan Kay.
8:36:24
bjorkintosh
exactly. we made it complicated. he recycles certain concepts over and over again in the hope that they stick in some day.
8:58:17
beach
I have been able to give talks for some software companies, and I try to discuss these things, but I have to be very careful with the way I present them. I am thinking of creating a new one, based on these talks by Alan Kay, but not as scattered.
9:01:37
beach
But the way he presents it requires the audience to be either very quick thinking, very knowledgeable, or experienced with his talking style.
9:02:47
beach
I can believe that. But if I were to give a talk in this style to the companies I am working with, I would not be invited back.
9:03:12
jackdaniel
fact that concepts are easy doesn't mean they don't require time to sink in - I don't think a single talk will cut it
9:04:10
jackdaniel
knowing what to look for and where to look for require another kind of (specialized!) knowledge
9:04:31
bjorkintosh
beach, it isn't so much that he gets away with it, than that he's indulged. I don't think a lot of people pay attention to what he has to say despite its gravity.
9:06:01
bjorkintosh
well. there's a model. source -> audience (level 1 level 2) -> exam. usually it hits level 1, and never makes it to level 2.
9:07:05
bjorkintosh
the deeper level requires a stupendous amount of effort, which time rarely permits.
9:08:21
jackdaniel
bjorkintosh: exam-based approach punishes curiousity and self-learners (mentioned library approach) in favour of people who need to be told what to do
9:09:24
bjorkintosh
jackdaniel, i don't think it's necessarily deliberate. it's just to expose you to enough things so that one may go pursue these things independently when the time comes.
9:14:43
jackdaniel
one problem is the question how to attract people who are genuinely interested in the subject (in opposite to people who pursue a career and were told that CS gives nice oportunities for it) at universities
9:15:24
smokeink
I'm gonna save this quote "exam-based approach punishes curiousity and self-learners (mentioned library approach) in favour of people who need to be told what to do"
9:15:44
jackdaniel
another problem is that not everyone who may be a wonderful scientist makes an acceptable teacher
9:19:18
jackdaniel
but back on-ontopic track, when I finish a) fixing layout protocol [if possible], b) write post about gadgets, I want to write a post about output records
9:19:53
jackdaniel
note: not output-recording-streams, but about using output-records without streams, because it is a very interesting concept on its own
9:45:46
beach
I just manipulate the graph of output records rather than using the stream operations.
9:51:06
jackdaniel
that passage will help me explain what is a difference between replaying and repainting too
9:59:53
beach
I am not sure about the difference between replaying and repainting, but I know the difference between redisplaying and replaying is very different.
10:05:48
jackdaniel
One way to think about it is that repaint is a separate thing. If you have output recording then replay repaints all output records which need to be repainted. Redisplay removes all records and creates them anew - you need to know what is to be displayed and you must record everything again. At least that's how I understand things at the moment.
14:13:12
jackdaniel
huh, I'm trying to head or tails of sheet transformations and it seems that standard have ingrined support for device-specific sheets (just as I have suggested McCLIM should have) - good, less work for later
14:14:24
jackdaniel
that said I've identified problem, but I'm not sure yet how to solve it without breaking things: we assume that mirrored sheet coordinates are the same as the window (so mirrored-translation and sheet-transformation have the same object)
14:14:43
jackdaniel
but for sheets which have only graft as a parent these are not relative coordinates but absolute
14:17:02
jackdaniel
I've also noticed somewhat superfluous transformations in the object: we have device, native, sheet and mirrored transformations. I bet at least two of these four can be merged so we have three (and in best case we may end with 2 transformations overall)