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4:03:10
nyef
So, careful system design should be able to handle swapping out device hardware across a checkpoint/resume. That mostly leaves the need to clear out corrupted state of some sort as a reason for a clean boot?
4:06:03
nyef
But corrupted state IS a reason to reboot... and persistent corrupted state is a known weakness of orthogonal persistence systems.
4:07:24
beach
If the file system is corrupted, then there is the same problem with traditional systems.
4:07:57
beach
I see no reason why one could not have a "fsck" for a system with orthogonal persistence.
4:09:45
nyef
The intutition I have about that is that "fsck" basically has to deal with one (middling-complex) data structure, while doing so to an orthogonal persistence system has to deal with every piece of state in the system.
4:11:09
nyef
... Right, fsck doesn't help with corrupted files within the filesystem, you end up needing other mechanisms for that.
4:27:24
beach
I forget whether I told you about some thinking I did with respect to "recovery". It seems to me that we have the following problem:
4:27:29
beach
We have a graph G1 of objects, representing a running system and a graph G2 of objects from a system that had an axe in its CPU, so that it only exists on a permanent memory device.
4:27:30
beach
The task is to transfer objects from G2 to G1 in such a way that some of the objects can be considered "the same" in the two graphs and should therefore not be transferred (such as standard-class, NIL, etc).
6:34:44
p_l
nyef: I once long time ago suggested using ZFS for object storage, with typed objects (preferably containing schema desc) and mapping between them and memory
7:13:57
jackdaniel
nyef: one such example which I can think of is testing, if new software works on a clean machine (before the software release). This may be solved by other means, like providing clean environment (assuming no bugs in the system itself)
7:14:33
jackdaniel
so it is confirmed, that it will start correctly on the user side (without dependencies on the developer machine state)
7:26:18
p_l
wasn't SBCL technically an example of striving to build a clean image from shutdown? While CMUCL always was more or less a warm boot?
11:18:03
beach
nyef: I finished reading this paper: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/Incommensurability.pdf that you recommended. But I don't know what kind of example to work through that you might be thinking of.
11:19:31
beach
Great paper, though. Sometimes , Richard Garbriel gets a bit too philosophical for me. I think the summary of this paper could be that Bracha and Cook simply got it wrong.